Taking my business forward. How and do I need to rethink?

[flanajb]

You are one of the most talented designers that I've seen on this forum, and your making skills don't look too bad either! What's more you seem tuned in to the contemporary style that makes your work particularly saleable.

However, despite your many abilities, if you need to pay off a mortgage and put food on the family table then unfortunately the answer has to be, get a proper job and build up the woodworking income as a sideline.

You can make a modest income from furniture, and if you are in the fortunate position of having almost no overheads and few financial obligations, then that modest income might be enough. But the reality is I don't know of a single designer/maker who generates a decent and reliable income purely from bespoke furniture making. To take a wage that's over £30k, everyone that I know has had to add a second string to their bow, fitted kitchens, teaching, joinery packages, boat fit outs, etc. Furthermore, even getting up to the modest £15-25k level that's more realistic from purely bespoke work, even that takes a year or two before the commissions start to arrive with reasonable regularity, and if you need to add a chunk of overhead by renting a workshop and buying machinery on credit then you'll almost certainly end up at or below minimum wage.

But it would be real shame if someone with your skills and originality hung up their tools completely. I hope you persevere along the commercial route, most sensibly in your spare time or on a part time basis, and I'd be absolutely delighted if you prove me completely wrong and make an absolute mint with your talents!

Thanks, but like many others I have a large mortgage and need to be bringing in > 30k / year. The wife cannot help on the income front, so I am now starting to realise that doing this full time is not a viable option. I think I have had my head up my *$%£ in thinking that this was going to suddenly turn around and become a revenue generating business in such a short space of time.

 

[flanajb]

The John Lewis idea is the one I like the most and have given great thought too, but unsure how to proceed.

Simply call them up and ask to speak to the buying department for homewares. Eventually you'll get through to someone who will talk you through the process and if you're lucky will post you one of their compliance packs. That's a big volume detailing what they expect from you as a supplier and how they'll trade with you.
Eventually you might get the chance to take them in to show and pitch to them, (ever watched The Apprentice or Dragons' Den ? you'll know the score).
Don't forget they'll expect nice packaging, instructions, CE labelling etc etc.

If you started now, you might get them in the shops by Autumn, if you're very lucky.
Not impossible, glacially slow, but a good company to deal with once you've got a sale.

Thanks.

 

[Wizard9999]

The John Lewis idea is the one I like the most and have given great thought too, but unsure how to proceed.

Simply call them up and ask to speak to the buying department for homewares. Eventually you'll get through to someone who will talk you through the process and if you're lucky will post you one of their compliance packs. That's a big volume detailing what they expect from you as a supplier and how they'll trade with you.
Eventually you might get the chance to take them in to show and pitch to them, (ever watched The Apprentice or Dragons' Den ? you'll know the score).
Don't forget they'll expect nice packaging, instructions, CE labelling etc etc.

If you started now, you might get them in the shops by Autumn, if you're very lucky.
Not impossible, glacially slow, but a good company to deal with once you've got a sale.

I can't see how you would make the volumes to make it viable for John Lewis. However, there was a TV programme a few years back on Liberty having opens days for small scale designers to take their products in for review, no idea if it is a reglar event or if it was a one off. Maybe see if you can find out. They would need lower volumes and could certainly support your product at a worthwhile price point. But the take-up rate was absolutely tiny compared to the hundreds queueing down the street for a chance to show them their designs. Still if they do run this event regularly and you get in...

Terry.

 

[flh801978]

John lewis will only pay you 25% for your goods
A good friend is a jeweller and had a small display. in her local store .she was shocked by the whole experience

It so they can mark down unsold goods by 100% and still cover their costs

As others have said theres no way you can make yourself 30k a year with making things out of wood and concrete unless someone else is making huge volumes for you and they selling

 

[Rhossydd]

I can't see how you would make the volumes to make it viable for John Lewis. However, there was a TV programme a few years back on Liberty having opens days for small scale designers to take their products in for review,

Having now seen the 'one a day' I'd agree that trying to supply John Lewis is a pipe dream. I doubt Liberty would be interested, their stock range isn't so 'industrial', far more 'arts and crafts' some wonderful work there though.

 

[flanajb]

John lewis will only pay you 25% for your goods

Ouch! There goes that idea.

 

[MIGNAL]

I sell a high value item and selling on commission can be anywhere around the 25 - 35% range of the selling price. I doubt that John Lewis would entertain the idea of selling on commission but some small independents might. Whilst the item is on the retail premises it's not covered for things like damage or theft. If they offer to buy outright I'm looking at a 50% or more 'cut' in my normal direct selling price. It can be as high as 70%.

 

[Wizard9999]

I can't see how you would make the volumes to make it viable for John Lewis. However, there was a TV programme a few years back on Liberty having opens days for small scale designers to take their products in for review,

Having now seen the 'one a day' I'd agree that trying to supply John Lewis is a pipe dream. I doubt Liberty would be interested, their stock range isn't so 'industrial', far more 'arts and crafts' some wonderful work there though.

They sell a concrete candle holder for £270

 

[mind_the_goat]

As to the idea of selling in galleries. A clock at £175 rrp will most likely be sold to a gallery for < £100, so are you better off just selling direct to the public for £100?

I think you completely missed the point, Galleries sell high end items, can show your actual item, have footfall, regular clients willing to spend money, probably including commercial interior designers, and also know the market. You however have none of those things, so even if you reduce your price to £30 you are still unlikely to sell much. Galleries sell low volume items, John Lewis sell mass produced items, you really need to think where your market is.
Yes, you will need to make more samples, I think you have done the fun bit of the project and now the hard work starts.

Your prices are probably reasonable for handmade items but only if you can the right people to see them.

This all requires getting out there and showing your product, seems like now is the best time to do that while you have no other commitments, if you need to take a different job to bring in some money you will then have no time to do this. Actually getting out and selling this stuff may be well out of your comfort zone but you have no business unless you do. There is a reason sales people often make more money than the people designing and making a product and there is a reason many highly skilled people with great ideas never make any money. Could your wife help with researching possible contacts, making calls and arranging appointments while you make some more samples? This may be your only chance, don't blow it

 

[AJB Temple]

Flan ajb - you asked, so I will be blunt, like some of the others. I did think this when I first looked at your website when you asked about steam bending, but kept quiet. Please don't take offence: but really you are throwing money away. I think you are going about this in a fundamentally wrong way: you have started with products that you can / want to make and are trying to find a market for them. You have pitched the prices into the high end sector, which is very limiting, and your web site is rather poor as it provides very little detail.

The only way to succeed in business, without a lot of luck, is to identify the market demand and then fill it.

If you look on Amazon, clocks are plentiful and cheap. Who wants a concrete clock? You give no information about the quality of the mechanism and do not show how a heavy item can be hung. There is nothing to justify the price, which starts at £115. The only place where you might sell this kind of thing is high end design shops, such as the Conran shop. Volumes will be low.

The lamp is competing in a saturated market (go into any DIY shed and you will see hundreds of cheap lamps. and you are using high labour steam bent woods leading to a price of over £300 for a rather basic lamp. This is dreamland. Ask yourself why anyone wood want a concrete lamp? The answer may be that it is fantastic for outdoor used waterproof and won't fall over in the wind: but whatever the reason is your website does not justify the purchase.

Nor does your website have any means of placing an order or making payment, and it delivers no instant gratification as everything is made to order with a 2-3 week lead time (so it is clear you have no stock). People simply do not buy from sites like this when they can order on a single click from Amazon.

I strongly advise you not to spend any more redundancy money on this until you have worked out something that you can make from which you can identify real demand and a route to market. You need cash coming in and I would not be relying on this as a business. You must find a route to market and a shop window that will get some significant traffic (by which I mean active web targeting and get yourself to London with some samples and leave them with design outlets).

Develop a proper written business plan. Start with market demand. Then product range. Then pricing and costing. If it is not scalable you will not make money, so if you are intent in being an artisan maker of concrete products I think you will need another job as well.

Either way, good luck with your venture. AJB

 

[Lons]

Hi flanajb

I've hesitated because it's obvious that you've poured your heart and soul into these products and there's nothing worse than people pouring cold water on your hopes and dreams. I know how hard it is and how long it takes to establish a business as I've done it.
It looks as if you've come down to earth so my opinion for what it's worth.

Your products look well made and very well thought out but difficult to find on-line and though they don't appeal to me personally there appears to be a market. I don't however think you would find too many buyers willing to speculate a lot of hard earned on an unknown product from an unknown company website which it's easy to assume is from a private address, ( no address and just email plus mobile number ). I can't see you making any kind of living anytime soon from your website unfortunately.

However much it goes against the grain, you need to get your products on display and if that means giving the retailer a high proportion of your perceived value then so be it.
You need to cost out materials, time and labour plus a % of your overheads and price it at a figure you're happy with for trade then double that figure for retail.

It's easy to say you're not giving some retailer 50 or 70% off retail but the alternative is probably that you don't sell any at all and don't forget that 50% of nothing is nothing!

I sincerely hope it works out for you but in the meantime I'd start looking for a job even if short term to pay those bills

regards
Bob

 

[Mr_P]

When I finally get round to launching my idea, I'll be contacting all the relevant bloggers on the subject and sending out samples to generate a bit of buzz and website traffic.

Think you need to give a lot thought to downsizing.

 

[beech1948]

flanajab,

You produce good sound designs and good levels of workmanship.

Photo's look plastic not concrete. Thats an issue as it immediately devalues the product.

Designs look OK but are almost too similar to plastic cheapos in the £15 to £30 price band. Product is devalued.

I feel that there is a market for expensive clocks BUT ! design is everything and I feel you need to lift your designs a little to stand out.

It may be unusual shapes
It may be more textures
It may be colours
It maybe size

Customers will want to know....why cement.? Why plain almost 60's ish designs. Why so expensive. Afterall clients do not worry about you making a living at all. John Lewis also could not care less.

Mid-century modern ( an American phrase) seems to be making a comeback over there and will probaby resurface here.

Potential markets.

High end designers, architects, show homes, sellers of 60's and 70 furniture made in the Danish style of teak or veneers, etsy, custom products for one off buyers.

Market issues

Price ? Most people buy a lamp, put in place and forget about it. Plastic cheaper clock competitors

Designs ? Texture, uniqueness,

Outlets ? Few and far between

Sorry to be a bit negative. Thats no bad thing though as I'm applying 48+ years of marketing experience and the experience of running my own company.

I too exited the IT industry recently. IF you need the money then go back to IT and maybe work as a contractor and maybe work 3 days a week to cover the mortgage and spend the rest developing the business ideas. It does not matter if you hate it as its a means to an end.

 

[davin]

Firstly don't get despondent.
You have a great product. I have been thinking making a range of smaller products to sell online for a long time, but finding the time to develop the idea with a young family and bills to pay not easy..
You have the time, the product and some money!
A friend of mine is developing lighting, so we went to 100% design show in London last autumn. This is the kind of place you have to be.
Designers, architects, specifiers, buyers from all over the world go there.
A week after this there is a large design show in East London for startups, Buyers also go there to check out what is happening on the street man!
We spoke to many light manufacturers, not all were large companies. Many are one man bands like yourself who have developed a few products.
There were some guys from Slovenia who had some really nice products. They got funding from kickstarter (many similar crowd funding sites).
They were selling all over Europe (and I believe they had several large orders from the show).
You might spend £1000 on a stall and not get any orders, but who knows who has picked up your card and will get back to you. I will be honest I am not in my comfort zone in those kind of places, I am not good at selling myself (that's why I am rubbish at selling my products to shops) but you have to be to make it in the design world.
So stick with it. Don't make your site too UK centric, get better photos (etsy has some good advice)
And lets be honest, its got to be more fun than doing IT (no disrespect to IT guys!)
Good luck Davin

http://www.100percentdesign.co.uk/
https://www.kickstarter.com/learn?ref=nav

 

[mind_the_goat]

The only way to succeed in business, without a lot of luck, is to identify the market demand and then fill it.

I don't think anyone knew they wanted an iphone before Apple started selling iphones. Not suggesting this is in the same league but when it comes to decorative items few people know exactly what they want till they see it, maybe luck is involved but good marketing may have more influence.

There is clearly a market for higher end decorative pieces it's just a question of how to tap into it. I still think fj has a chance to get these onto the market for a little additional investment in time and money. If he can sell a few items through specialists he can then think about designing new products, or they may be able to provide feedback. may well be that he has to find other work but if he get these out there first then the business has a chance, even if it's only as an additional income.

Thinking about it, the name ConcreteLab could be a problem, as well as sounding industrial ( the products don't look industrial) it also rather restricts your other product options. would be better to just go with your name (or make one up) to give it that 'designer' appeal.

I don't think you should give up just yet, but maybe I'm biased towards wanting you to succeed as an IT person myself I'd like to think I could break out into something else one day.

 

[Inoffthered]

The John Lewis idea is the one I like the most and have given great thought too, but unsure how to proceed.

.[/quote]


I think your view of the "John Lewis" option would change when you see their contract. As with all of the big multiples they know how to squeeze their suppliers and whatever your starting price is they have a number of ways of chipping away at your margins for example:-

They operate a rebate scheme based on any increase in year on year sales of your products which can be as much as 6% off your invoice value.

In addition they will extract a 2% contribution towards their marketing and promotion costs (for their general marketing, not to promote your products specifically). The 2% is calculated BEFORE any of the other charges/ deductions are made.

They operate a just in time delivery policy and charge a 5% per week penalty if any orders are delivered late.

John Lewis also retain the absolute discretion to mark down the selling price of your items and charge the supply a maximum of 50% cost price discount

They charge a settlement discount of 3% on ALL payments to suppliers and they pay 60 days after the invoice is received.


When you add up all of the rebates/discounts etc your final margin is nowhere near where it started so you would need to factor these into your initial selling price. Also bear in mind that they are "never knowingly unsold" which could create problems if you did find another retail outlet to sell your items.


With regards to more general comments, my advice would be to avoid selling too cheaply, it is too easy to become a busy fool. The trick is to find the right market and then sell your stuff in a way that can justify a premium price. This will mean presenting your web site in a stylish way and ensuring that product photos show the quality of the items.

Unlike some I don't have a problem with your business name, it won't be a problem if it is marketed and presented in the right way. (Who would have thought calling a business Weird Fish or Fat Face would have been successful?)

I know of numerous people in your position that use Pinterest as a means of exposing their products to the market place.

You could get a stand at any of the trade shows or Chelsea Flower show but this involves an element of risk in that you have the certainty of a cost with uncertainty as to the number of sales.

 

[MIGNAL]

Who would have thought 'Carphone Warehouse' would be a suitable name for a high street retailer selling mobile phones. I know it may have started out aiming at the car market but when you think about it it's a pretty naff name.

 

[heimlaga]

To be harsh I got the impression that you are a very good designer, a good craftsman, a mediocre production planner, a mediocre salesman and a diastrously bad economist.

All of us have an unique combination of those skills. Few are good at more than two things and every single person is disastrously bad at at least one of those things...... so in all you are a person no worse nor better than most of us. That is what we have friends and family and collegues fore. They make up for our shortcomings.

Being a very mediocre salesman myself I cannot help you with that....... but I am rather good at production planning and economy...... and I am absolutely sure that with your hobby sized production you cannot produce and market enough clocks and lamps per week to earn the amount of money you need to stay afloat.
3000 pounds a month before tax is a huge lot of money. I doubt a craftsman in any field can earn that much. I have never ever earned more than 2200 euros (1880 pounds) in a month even when I had a very lucrative job and worked long days.

An one man business producing enough to stay afloat would include a concrete mixer that can mix at least two wheelbarrowloads of concrete at a time, and a series of some 200-400 moulds that you can put on a vibrating table, fill and vibrate and put on a rack to set when you have a concrete casting day. Then you need suitable silos for two kinds of aggregate plus cement so you can buy at least 5 preferably 8 cubic metres at a time of each sort of aggregate. The cement silo must be in a heated space.......and of cause you need an unheated building for casting.....plus you need a heated spray painting booth and an assembly room.
This would be viable if you live in a rural area and have an old empty barn you can put to use and friends in the scrap iron business who can find your machines cheap and if you are good at making things work......... but then you would be far away from the swankier parts of Greater London where your customers live....... and as we are both equally bad at marketing I doubt you could sell all those clocks and lamps you produce. I am absolutely sure that myself I couldn't sell that much whatever I did.

 

[Craigus]

This has been an interesting read. I can't really add anything extra that hasn't already been mentioned, except the obvious which you may have thought of already... or may have overlooked due to your enthusiasm.

You enjoy this now because, even though you are looking at expanding it into a business, ultimately it's still a hobby.

Say it all worked perfectly just as you would like it to in whatever capacity that is. Give it 3 years and you will be sick of it and you'll be browsing a Golf forum rather than this one as that will be what you do for fun as concrete molds and steam bending are no longer enjoyable and just another boring production run.

Not in every case is that true but you know what I mean. I very nearly learnt this the hard way.

 

[flanajb]

Firstly don't get despondent.
You have a great product. I have been thinking making a range of smaller products to sell online for a long time, but finding the time to develop the idea with a young family and bills to pay not easy..
You have the time, the product and some money!
A friend of mine is developing lighting, so we went to 100% design show in London last autumn. This is the kind of place you have to be.
Designers, architects, specifiers, buyers from all over the world go there.
A week after this there is a large design show in East London for startups, Buyers also go there to check out what is happening on the street man!
We spoke to many light manufacturers, not all were large companies. Many are one man bands like yourself who have developed a few products.
There were some guys from Slovenia who had some really nice products. They got funding from kickstarter (many similar crowd funding sites).
They were selling all over Europe (and I believe they had several large orders from the show).
You might spend £1000 on a stall and not get any orders, but who knows who has picked up your card and will get back to you. I will be honest I am not in my comfort zone in those kind of places, I am not good at selling myself (that's why I am rubbish at selling my products to shops) but you have to be to make it in the design world.
So stick with it. Don't make your site too UK centric, get better photos (etsy has some good advice)
And lets be honest, its got to be more fun than doing IT (no disrespect to IT guys!)
Good luck Davin

http://www.100percentdesign.co.uk/
https://www.kickstarter.com/learn?ref=nav

Thanks for that Davin. All very, very valid and necessary, but I too feel exactly the same as you regarding comfort zone and selling myself. This is where a business partner who enjoys that side of the business would be invaluable right now!

Some very nice designs / products at 100% design show!