Take a look at the bottom

[Spectric]

The other day I ventured into a kitchen retailer just because they were there and so was I, the one on Tv where two upset customers run around having a fit. Well what an experience, gives me a new perspective on quality and how people must now perceive quality as just skin deep. When I mentioned to the sales person that I thought there products were awful they told me it is all fur coat, all about the look from a distance at an affordable price and just don't look to close.

I am still struggling to imagine who would buy such garbage, talk about quality free but then I suppose to some anything is better than nothing but what a reflection on how we perceive quality these days. So if you have some free time and maybe don't think you are capable of building your own kitchen then go and have a look, it will motivate you into having a go. Also take a look at there brassware, this is right at the bottom of what's out there and for me is just horrendous nasty tack.

 

[HOJ]

I picked up a big kitchen project just prior to lock-down, client had a quote from the aforementioned, their design was terrible, lots of infills and panels to make it work which cost a fortune, they couldn't make it fit anywhere with their boxes, we made one that fitted, using Birch ply carcasses and included loads of different draws & storage solutions, we did buy some IKEA cutlery trays to go in @ £6.00 each, mind, bottom line is we made it for 2/3rds of their quote.
Having said that I was bulk buying 18mm Birch ply for about £35.00 a sheet at the time, not the case now...

 

[Geoff_S]

I've built 3 kitchens as a hobbyist. It took a lot of time and patience but came out well.

My nephew is a superb carpenter and joiner by trade and I have spoken to him about building bespoke kitchens from scratch. He has tried but
no-one wants it. They all go for manufactured kitchens. As with @HOJ he can beat the manufacturers price! The challenges come when they want a painted finish, but he has now covered that with professional spray equipment. Still no joy.

His last customer decided not to go bespoke with him but went a high end manufactured range which he fitted. 7 "replacement" deliveries later and there's just one more door that they need to get right. And at the end of the day it's plastic veneered carcasses with paint MDF flat doors!

It's not that the customers are stupid, they are lay people when it comes to this sort of thing and maybe cannot conceive that an individual
can build and install such an apparently huge project compared to a company. What they don't seem to understand is that with a skilled tradesperson they are paying for the skills and the materials. Not factory premises, managers, admin staff, shop floor staff, holidays, sick leave, etc etc.

 

[HOJ]

I struggle to pick up kitchen builds, I could beat them all on price, but not having a showroom or the software to do the pretty pictures seems to be a deal breaker for potential customers.

I can spray, but its a PIA if there is a lot to do, so I outsource.

Snapshot of a wip for the one I built:

 

[Geoff_S]

I struggle to pick up kitchen builds, I could beat them all on price, but not having a showroom or the software to do the pretty pictures seems to be a deal breaker for potential customers.

I can spray, but its a PIA if there is a lot to do, so I outsource.

Snapshot of a wip for the one I built:

View attachment 144651View attachment 144652

What is not to like about that?

 

[thetyreman]

no offense to builders but I feel the same about that when I look at most buildings in the UK, standards are shockingly low.

 

[D_W]

The other day I ventured into a kitchen retailer just because they were there and so was I, the one on Tv where two upset customers run around having a fit. Well what an experience, gives me a new perspective on quality and how people must now perceive quality as just skin deep. When I mentioned to the sales person that I thought there products were awful they told me it is all fur coat, all about the look from a distance at an affordable price and just don't look to close.

color, size and texture here. Everything underneath is always a "Surprise" later. You have to go up pretty far on the earnings list to find someone who cares about quality. Everyone else is shopping on price, often dictated by financing.

Been decades since that wasn't the case with furniture, too. About 20 years ago, I had to buy a new bed. I asked the guy at a huge furniture store if they had anything solid wood and he said "we have one" (out of about 50). I asked him about it and he said "everyone comes in looking for solid wood but after they look at a few options, they only want something that looks like veneer does".

 

[Pallet Fancier]

no offense to builders but I feel the same about that when I look at most buildings in the UK, standards are shockingly low.

Dude, I once made the mistake of leaning against an interior partition wall at a friend's new build. Felt something "give" inside. Shifted my weight fast and sidled away like I'd never been there. Nothing obvious on the surface, but pretty sure what was inside would make a traditional Japanese paper wall look like a bunker. I think the plasterboard was probably stiffer than the studs holding it up!

 

[mikej460]

We went into one of the showrooms the OP referred to whilst looking for units for our recently renovated utility room and after looking over the first kitchen I was appalled by the poor quality. We then went to Homebase and met a really friendly and competent salesperson who spent time asking about our preferred style, colour and budget then introduced us their Timber Shaker range. We looked at it and liked it a lot, it had standard white cabinets with grey painted ash veneer doors and it was being sold off at 50 % discount. I'm currently installing it, so here are a couple of pics but note the worktops were from Worktop Express (highly recommended) - prime beech butchers block with a discount on 2m lengths they were £160 each, I did the routing and profiling as there isn't a straight wall in the room (very old stone galley kitchen). I bought the clear matt Top Oil finish from @Fanous.

First a pic of the ash veneer...

 

[Fanous]

We went into one of the showrooms the OP referred to whilst looking for units for our recently renovated utility room and after looking over the first kitchen I was appalled by the poor quality. We then went to Homebase and met a really friendly and competent salesperson who spent time asking about our preferred style, colour and budget then introduced us their Timber Shaker range. We looked at it and liked it a lot, it had standard white cabinets with grey painted ash veneer doors and it was being sold off at 50 % discount. I'm currently installing it, so here are a couple of pics but note the worktops were from Worktop Express (highly recommended) - prime beech butchers block with a discount on 2m lengths they were £160 each, I did the routing and profiling as there isn't a straight wall in the room (very old stone galley kitchen). I bought the clear matt Top Oil finish from @Fanous.

First a pic of the ash veneer...

View attachment 144671

View attachment 144669

View attachment 144670

Glad the Osmo got used. Looks great!

 

[ian33a]

For most people, a kitchen unit is simply a box in which they store their stuff and upon which a worktop is installed so that they can rip open the packaging of their ready meal (a little harsh, but you get the idea). What matters is what it looks like. Longevity, within reason, isn't an issue as they know they will grow tired of it and want another, or they will sell the property at some stage and start again. Most of them don't even consider quality of installation. They just expect somebody to put it in and that, if there are snags, they will be addressed.

We recently changed our family bathroom. Almost anything would be better than what was there. We chose a company who we had used before to fit my brother's bathroom. We chose the units and the fittings based upon looks and overall price. We didn't see any point in choosing cheap, but we didn't have unlimited funds either. Function and form, somewhat over quality, but reasonable quality assumed for the price we agreed.

Time will tell how robust it is. However, where we did well, and it was purely luck, was in the fitting. Our assigned fitter spent three weeks on site doing the job. The quality of his work and the attention to detail was exceptional. When the company owner came out to see how everything was (once finished) he did admit that the assigned fitter was an order of magnitude better than most of his other staff. Interestingly, I discovered that this fitter had kitted out most of their showroom as well. He even, off the record, told me a few stories about other fitters in the fitting team.

For me, what I purchase needs to be fit for purpose. So, perhaps it's MDF or chipboard or engineered wood. Yes, I'd like solid oak, or whatever, but I can seldom justify the cost of having it. If somebody does a good job with the installation and it lasts for the time I expect, I'm happy.

I've learned to almost always avoid the big box providers and use smaller local companies instead. The local companies have a local reputation to preserve and while they may not be masters of total quality management, many will try to be fair and to please their customers. The national companies are a different matter. For many, it's purely money and targets and one department is always keen to pass the problem on to somebody else.

Trouble is, so many of us will, more and more, chase the bottom line, and quality and customer service will quickly follow it.

 

[pgrbff]

I picked up a big kitchen project just prior to lock-down, client had a quote from the aforementioned, their design was terrible, lots of infills and panels to make it work which cost a fortune, they couldn't make it fit anywhere with their boxes, we made one that fitted, using Birch ply carcasses and included loads of different draws & storage solutions, we did buy some IKEA cutlery trays to go in @ £6.00 each, mind, bottom line is we made it for 2/3rds of their quote.
Having said that I was bulk buying 18mm Birch ply for about £35.00 a sheet at the time, not the case now...

How do you finish the inside?

 

[akirk]

I agree with this, but as a consumer it is perhaps not quite so easy… we will be replacing our kitchen next spring, and would look first for quality and longevity, then also quality of fitting…

at present we are looking at diy-kitchens:
https://www.diy-kitchens.com/kitchens/norton-alabaster/details/solid timber frames with veneered doors…

if anyone knows a local craftsman (Bristol) who can match or undercut their pricing for similar quality we would far rather have one made for us locally, but current estimate from them is c. £10k and I can’t see someone matching that…

as a consumer, access to the options is pretty important, and few local craftsmen sell themselves well, and even if we did know of someone, how do we know their reputation? what is the risk that we lose our money and get no kitchen, what about delays? (we will have a tight schedule amongst other work), how do we know what their quality is like, etc. etc. DIY-Kitchens is low risk, a known quantity and an open book in terms of options. From what we have seen, their quality level is not bad, and a kitchen from them should last 20-30 years…

 

[HOJ]

Trouble is, so many of us will, more and more, chase the bottom line, and quality and customer service will quickly follow it.

I absolutely agree with you, I am very fortunate I don't get involved in projects where the budget sets the limit of quality or service.

How do you finish the inside?

Generally I use Tikkurila products for paint finishes, for my carcasses I use this: Kiva 10

and few local craftsmen sell themselves well, and even if we did know of someone, how do we know their reputation? what is the risk that we lose our money and get no kitchen, what about delays? (we will have a tight schedule amongst other work), how do we know what their quality is like, etc. etc.

I find that quite sad, whether you will get a better price by going local, I doubt it, but I would suggest you would potentially get a far better service, along with a tailored solution that works better in the space.

 

[clogs]

for us we needed a new kitchen....8-10 month summer rentals.....
here there is no option, it's either Ikea or bespoke.....incidentaly a 60cm wide x four drawer base unit from Ikea was around €360 plus the fronts and handles....and that was the cruncher.....we quit looking.....
the basic qual is pretty good....have seen a lot worse.......the units for the outside kitchen Ikea, it's all made in Poland.....
So in the end we just replaced the doors with custom made, high gloss finish / re.. easy clean....
there are a further 8 doors and 3 drawer fronts around the corner.....
total cost inc new self close hinges and handles was less than €750 euros....
plus another 300 for the Formica type worktops......
the way we see it is that if it gets trashed after 5 years we'll do it all over again.....

so unless the units are garbage there is this option.....

.

 

[akirk]

and few local craftsmen sell themselves well, and even if we did know of someone, how do we know their reputation? what is the risk that we lose our money and get no kitchen, what about delays? (we will have a tight schedule amongst other work), how do we know what their quality is like, etc. etc.

I find that quite sad, whether you will get a better price by going local, I doubt it, but I would suggest you would potentially get a far better service, along with a tailored solution that works better in the space.

Every choice regarding a kitchen is a mixture of:
- functionality
- price
- quality
- emotion
We have removed the emotion, in the sense of we are not sold by the local kitchen shop in Clifton which sells you the same kitchen at £20k extra. The functionality should be a neutral factor - the kitchen is quite simple and there will be no issue getting what we want from DIY-Kitchens or bespoke - if the kitchen were a weird shape or particularly difficult then it would push us more towards a local craftsman...

So you are simply left with a balance of quality and price. With quality, there are roughly three categories:
- lower quality where the lack of quality will impact on the kitchen over time, faster deterioration / stuff not working as it should / etc.
- good quality where the quality matches the functionality needed and the lifetime required
- excess quality, where you are paying for e.g. the enjoyment of premium materials which may make no practical difference, or you are paying for brand names etc.

With price - yes it varies, but a company like DIY Kitchens are pushing out reliable well built kitchens at a good price - as for local tradesmen, some of their pricing currently is completely ripping people off, they feel that the recent shortages of people means that they can charge anything - they may have a shock in a year or two!

For us we are in that middle category, and it therefore becomes a balance between cost and quality / reliability / convenience / etc. While I agree that a good local craftsman should give a better service, a company like DIY Kitchens has a fantastic reputation, we will use a local chap who built our bathrooms to fit the kitchen (fab attention to detail and levels of perfectionism) - ultimately it will save us quite a bit of money without the risks inherent in finding someone who is a one-man band or slightly bigger with little resource contingency for when things go wrong, who doesn't have the buying power to get fittings cheaply, etc. - a much bigger risk for something we intend to do once for the next 20-30 years in a house we intend to stay in... Could we find someone superb locally - yes, but it is a nightmare trying to do that, and high risk on an expensive piece of work... Instead we will end up with a lovely kitchen for probably 50% - 75% of the cost and with much lower risk... we will spend more on work surfaces / appliances etc. where the quality does make a difference - but ultimately as long as the carcasses are well built and well installed, they will last far beyond what we need.

So, yes, emotionally it might be sad, but until there is a way of mitigating that financial risk, why would I go and waste a lot of time looking for someone locally with no understanding as to whether we will end up with an excellent kitchen, or even a kitchen at all...

 

[Terry - Somerset]

I was brought up in a culture of make do and mend, buy well and buy once, etc. Many years ago, on a work visit to Saudi Arabia, I was appalled to see buildings in the centre of town, erected in the last 10 years, being torn down. They were no longer regarded as fit for purpose.

Most purchases suit a need at a particular point. Why buy a costly kitchen which can last several lifetimes when circumstances change materially. That most are concerned about style over substance is no real surprise - some can evaluate a piece of furniture and identify structural issues, compromised design and workmanship - most cannot.

As an aside I installed a Homebase kitchen about 15 years ago - chosen mainly as daughter had a part time job and staff discount card.

The cabinets are still all fine, although with hindsight I should have included more pull-out baskets - bending to get to the back of cupboards is more challenging as the years roll by. The doors have some minor damage but could easily be changed if I so chose.

It is however academic as we are likely to be moving - demonstrating that 15 years for a kitchen is entirely adequate. Even the most elegant of quality kitchens is likely to pick up marks and scuffs over 15 years, and both style and requirements change.

This is not an environmentally optimised attitude, but inevitable where folk have to prioritise limited funds. Some may accept a financial penalty for the betterment of the environment, most need a financial incentive. That labour costs are so high, and material and product costs so low is at the root of the problem.

 

[HOJ]

@akirk Interesting to see how you are making some of your decisions.

I have an approach to all my projects by getting to understand the clients needs, and working with them to get the best outcome, as I said before if the budget is the constraint, then we know its going to be a compromise, and perhaps even a non starter for me.

 

[Sean33]

Every choice regarding a kitchen is a mixture of:
- functionality
- price
- quality
- emotion
We have removed the emotion, in the sense of we are not sold by the local kitchen shop in Clifton which sells you the same kitchen at £20k extra. The functionality should be a neutral factor - the kitchen is quite simple and there will be no issue getting what we want from DIY-Kitchens or bespoke - if the kitchen were a weird shape or particularly difficult then it would push us more towards a local craftsman...

So you are simply left with a balance of quality and price. With quality, there are roughly three categories:
- lower quality where the lack of quality will impact on the kitchen over time, faster deterioration / stuff not working as it should / etc.
- good quality where the quality matches the functionality needed and the lifetime required
- excess quality, where you are paying for e.g. the enjoyment of premium materials which may make no practical difference, or you are paying for brand names etc.

With price - yes it varies, but a company like DIY Kitchens are pushing out reliable well built kitchens at a good price - as for local tradesmen, some of their pricing currently is completely ripping people off, they feel that the recent shortages of people means that they can charge anything - they may have a shock in a year or two!

For us we are in that middle category, and it therefore becomes a balance between cost and quality / reliability / convenience / etc. While I agree that a good local craftsman should give a better service, a company like DIY Kitchens has a fantastic reputation, we will use a local chap who built our bathrooms to fit the kitchen (fab attention to detail and levels of perfectionism) - ultimately it will save us quite a bit of money without the risks inherent in finding someone who is a one-man band or slightly bigger with little resource contingency for when things go wrong, who doesn't have the buying power to get fittings cheaply, etc. - a much bigger risk for something we intend to do once for the next 20-30 years in a house we intend to stay in... Could we find someone superb locally - yes, but it is a nightmare trying to do that, and high risk on an expensive piece of work... Instead we will end up with a lovely kitchen for probably 50% - 75% of the cost and with much lower risk... we will spend more on work surfaces / appliances etc. where the quality does make a difference - but ultimately as long as the carcasses are well built and well installed, they will last far beyond what we need.

So, yes, emotionally it might be sad, but until there is a way of mitigating that financial risk, why would I go and waste a lot of time looking for someone locally with no understanding as to whether we will end up with an excellent kitchen, or even a kitchen at all...

I think you hit the nail on the head, carcasses, and then iron mongery. For me go the extra mile and spend the money on a quality birch ply carcass, maybe overkill but it'll last years.