Stanley Bailey No 4: To far gone?

[timbo614]

I picked this up for £3.50 at the boot sale last Sunday. Just taking a proper look it it.

Nothing moves which I already knew. Both grips are split the handle completely.

What do the experts here think of the chances of rescuing it?

At the moment the suposedly moving parts are soaking in WD40 and 3-In-One. Will post again when (if) I can get it apart!

Pictures:

 

[Bod]

It's do able.
But whether a modern one like that is worth it, if nothing else it's a good practise case.
Check the pitting on the back of the blade first, any pitting there, then it's scrap or new blade.

Bod

 

[Bm101]

Certainly no expert.
If it's in that state and not too old I think I'd be a bit wary of how it's been treated tbh before I put a lot of time into it. Looks like one of those abused dog adverts you see at Christmas time. :|

 

[timbo614]

>> Check the pitting on the back of the blade first, any pitting there, then it's scrap or new blade.

I got it partly disassembled. It's scrap really. Not only is is the blade badly corroded so is the backing iron I can't seperate them even with lots of WD and an enormous screwdriver. The frog bolts & washers have corroded so badly they seem fused into one piece. Shame - the price of a pint wasted! I'll get something better to to try to restore I might work on the body & sole just for the practice & experience as you suggest.

The "best" bits of are the threaded rods and caps that hold the handle and knob on. Hmm.. I have spares already!

 

[bugbear]

It's a parts donor - it you can get it apart. You never know when you'll need a frog-bolt or a mouth-adjusting-plate-holding-screw for a good 'un.

BugBear

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Just keep your eyes open - I've seen near perfect older ones sell for four or five quid. I've only once paid over £5 for a No.3, 4, or five. As BB said - keep any parts you can.

 

[kwigly]

and get an impact driver,
best tool ever for loosening stuck screws

 

[Ttrees]

I always look for a nice thick sole
and it looks to be by pic 2 .
I'd get cracking on and restore it , no hesitations
But then I'm a glutton for punishment

 

[ED65]

I don't think there were enough photos and they weren't large enough to give a proper assessment but I'd say it's unlikely that it's too far gone. I recently bought my first Stanley plane and in some ways it was in worse condition, and this is how it ended up. And there are multiple galleries online showing planes far rustier than either of ours brought back to good working order, and in some cases to like-new condition.

Your handles could well have been goners though (especially if you needed to get the whole plane wet in order to unscrews them) but they're the least of your worries since you can make replacements and if needed they're easily bought.

Whether a plane like this is worth the time and effort to clean it up is up to you of course. This is one of those things which divides woodworkers but both the time and effort needed (to get a plane back to a user) are regularly overstated on forums, mostly from those who use hands-on methods. All the best ways of removing rust are hands-off though, so what they mostly require of you is the patience to wait out the process. It doesn't require lots of sweaty toil bent over the tool, ending up with you having black fingers and a sore back

Not only is is the blade badly corroded so is the backing iron I can't seperate them even with lots of WD and an enormous screwdriver.

That's the wrong way to try to get them apart. Everyone who restores old tools will come across something at some point which isn't just stuck together because of rust but is 'rust welded' and that's when rust removal needs to become an integral part of the initial disassembly (or you risk damaging or breaking parts). You want to eat/dissolve the rust, at best they'll nearly come apart on their own afterwards.

 

[ED65]

Check the pitting on the back of the blade first, any pitting there, then it's scrap or new blade.

Pitting isn't an automatic dealbreaker on the flat of the blade. How much of an issue they represent is down to how many there are and how deep they are, and of course their location in relation to the edge.

Even if there are pits at the edge whether they matter at all depends on the type of plane. Almost nobody does it, but you can leave pits on some plane irons, on a jack or roughing plane for example.

 

[Carl P]

A vinegar, or diluted vinegar bath helps dissolve rust - I left a very rusty Record 52 vice in a big plastic box full of diluted vinegar with some acetic crystals for good measure, after a couple of days (you shouldn't need that long as you wouldn't need to dilute it as much as I did) I scrubbed it down to find a completely good vice. If you do this it at least gives you a chance to see what's under the rust and gunk and then be able to make a realistic assessment of whether it's worth putting any more time in.

Cheerio,

Carl

 

[timbo614]

Opinions, opinions!

Ed - thanks for ideas. I didn't have to submerge the whole plane in WD. The grip (tote?) and knob came off easily. I wasn't trying to prise apart the blade and iron, just undo the locking bolt! I'll try the drill in reverse screwing mode so it jars it, some where I have an extra wide slot bit.
I can't do Hi-Res photos because of the limts on the forum photo size ( I can take then and in super-macro mode the image above of the corrosion was originally 1.4Mb) but although a techie I do not want any "media publishing" internet accounts, I have enough junk mail as it is!

Carl - I'll try that! What ratio of vinegar/water dilution did you use? I've plenty of vinegar as it happens.

So, I haven't junked it yet, it's not in my nature to give up on things immediately especially "new" projects. I'll work on until defeat is staring me straight in the face, close up.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Might be worth a search for electrolysis.

 

[thetyreman]

apple cider vinegar is extremely good for rust removal, try that.

 

[timbo614]

Well, nearly 63 years on this planet and I didn't know that vinegar removed rust! I know you learn something every day and I have today, but that is ridiculous.
The rusted parts have been in their bath for nearly 6 hours I gave them a quick scrub just now with a small stiff bristle (not wire) brush and there is marked improvement already.

I'm using Siansbury's "basics vinegar" 1/3rd to 2/3rds water.

 

[ED65]

I didn't have to submerge the whole plane in WD. The grip (tote?) and knob came off easily.

That was handy. Sorry that bit wasn't clear, I meant if you had to submerge the whole plane in rust remover, or in an electrolysis bath, not WD-40 (that would be pricey!) :shock:

I wasn't trying to prise apart the blade and iron, just undo the locking bolt!

Yes I got that. I've seen many severely damaged cap iron screws where an attempt was made to force ones that were stuck fast. And apparently it really is possible to break the head clean off, to judge by the headless screws that are sometimes seen stuck in the body casting :mrgreen:

Anyway, these are the classic stuck bits that a soak in rust remover will change from simply-won't-budge to one-grunt-and-loose. First time I did this (on the solidly rusted irons from a coffin smoother) I only needed to use an old 2p coin to loosen the screw after soaking. I was completely amazed.

Well, nearly 63 years on this planet and I didn't know that vinegar removed rust! I know you learn something every day and I have today, but that is ridiculous.

Here's another one for you, you'll love this: mix some molasses into water and that'll remove rust too! Sounds like an old wives' tale but it works well, albeit slowly. It can take weeks for very heavy rust, although regularly fishing the stuff out and scrubbing it down just like you've done greatly speeds up the process.

I'm using Siansbury's "basics vinegar" 1/3rd to 2/3rds water.

That'll work. Vinegar type doesn't matter, it's the acetic acid that does it and all vinegars have some.

The only reason to prefer one over another is cost or how strong it is since stronger vinegars work faster, but since you can speed up the reaction by heating the vinegar (useful technique that) there's no real need to buy anything more than your basic vinegar.

By the way, dissolving salt into the vinegar also makes it work better.

 

[ED65]

...diluted vinegar with some acetic crystals for good measure...

Why dilute the vinegar and then add acetic crystals Carl, isn't that one step back and one forward?

 

[Jacob]

Dunno I've seen worse!
1 Separate all the components.
2 Stick broken knob, handle, back together
3 Sharpen the blade - don't worry about pits too much, nor any mad flattening inclinations
4 Make sure the cap iron edge is clean and tight against the blade
5 Scrape rust off sole and meeting faces sole/frog/blade
6 Slosh raw linseed oil over everything
7 Put it back together and start planing!

If you can't separate bits then it turns into a metal work problem. Blade pitting is usually survivable but there is obviously a point of no return. Pitting anywhere else doesn't matter at all.

 

[timbo614]

Hi Jacob, I'm still on step one of your list unfortunately.

As a progress report tho' after 30 odd hours in the vinegar bath something vaguely palne like emerged. still some way to go especially for the blade and backing iron, which I don't hold out too much hope for to be honest.
Another problem is the frog bolts which still look rusted on so at the cost of another half litre of vinegar I have put it all back in a fresh bath - I'm assuming there is a limit to the chemical reaction, so refreshed it.

On blade and backing iron I picked up a record no 4 for a quid this Sunday that was almost destroyed it had a broken frog at the top where the lateral lever attaches, busted side near the nose - gawd knows what had happened to it. But the blade and back iron although rusted looked in much better knick than the Stanley... They have been in the bath too and came apart just using the cap iron (as you do). They look like they will fit...

 

[clauskeller]

Hi,

I suggest to try it with citric acid instead of vinegar. I had never rust that resisted this. Much on the internet about it, and probably here as well, just search.

I'm sure the plane can be brought back to work.

Claus