I suspected as I've gone on making metal things (most of them are better than most commercial offerings, but I cannot better the best commercial offerings) that there's nothing that would prevent a very decent cheap chisel.
Why? Because though I didn't believe it at first, I've come to learn that small amounts of alloying elements (small bits of manganese, chrome and vanadium) actually improve the results in quick heat treat rather than "polluting the steel", and when those bits are not creating large free carbides because there isn't enough of them, other than a slight change in feel, their presence is undetectable (rather, they do seem to improve toughness a bit without getting to stupid levels like I've found in bearing steel - that's too tough and when an edge gets damaged, it won't let go, and that's a problem).
Long story short, I figured I'd buy a set of very cheap chisels here at the local harbor freight both to regrind and re-heat treat. If they're garbage, no problem - they're $12 for 6 of them.
However, after a reground the bevels on them and had proper time to be turned off by the tiny handles (mind you, most "experts" who buy lie nielsen and other chisels and pinch the tips go to euro and chinese retailers and complain about handles sizes that a competent user would like - one who would grip the handle and want to strike the chisel without hitting the web of their thumb), I found that nothing else needed to be changed.
....
what's the background on thinking that a cheap chisel could be good? The cost of CrV drill rod from alibaba is about $2 a pound. I don't know that there's a full pound in 6 chisels. The additives have made it so that a guy doesn't need to have special quenching oil and pay enormous attention to temperature and method to get good results. This is, however, true on something like white steel or 1095 - the results are highly sensitive to temperature control and an ideal quench. For a foreign company to have one someone clipping off pieces of drill rod and pounding them in a couple of sequential dies to forge them to near shape and then run them almost without human intervention through a fixturing machine - what would you be missing? You'd be missing highly wear resistant elements as well as stainlessness, etc. These are pointless in a chisel. If:
* the steel isn't horribly overheated when it's cut and forged (it's unlikely that someone would spend the time to keep it at super high heat as that would cost money)
* it's struck while still hot
* the hardening line gets it within a reasonble range twice for quench and temper
Nothing else is really required.
How do I also know that this is enough time to get a good result? For a very long time, razors have been made this way. The forging process isn't elaborate - it's a set of progressive dies to get drill rod set into a hollow shape to minimize grinding. It's probably beneficial to remove a bit of the grain direction in the drill rod (the best part of the long grain on the steel - the strongest part - is off the front of a straight razor where the edge *isn't*. The same is true of knives - rolled stock grain direction goes out the end, but it's better to have a knife chip the edge than have it break off at the tip. At any rate, it's possible to get very fine steel this way.
Well, by chance or on purpose, these chisels are at a place where I don't have the heart to reharden and temper them. I'd be gaining nothing unless there's a desire to see if they can be made bonkers hard (but then they wouldn't sharpen well on oilstones and all would be lost).
They abrade easily, aren't too heavy, the steel is exceptionally fine, and drops its wire edge on a washita as well as anything I've sharpened without having to be stupid hard to do that.
They also pass the practical test, which is to pare, then do an interval of chopping maple (not pine or something nice, but maple) briskly and then go back to paring again without showing any or any significant damage (wider than 1/2 inch and after chopping two cubic inches of maple, similar to 4 or 10- half blinds - no damage at all.
But the handles are crude/small and the lands on the side are fat. I have a belt grinder and can freehand them no problem.
....
this, however, leaves you guys in the dark as HF isn't an english chain. And as we know in the US, enjoy your HF todays, because HF's tomorrows are guaranteed to no-one. The next run could be trash, and the chisels after these if the same style isn't kept could also be junk.The 6 at the top are HFs - I ground the handle off of the one in the middle and put one of Gombeira on it after regrinding the side bevels. The ones on the bottom are blanks of mine et to be made into a more classic style of chisel (They are 26c3 steel, far more exotic, and perhaps won't end up being any better!)
And a look at the grind on the side of one that was unground, as well as one that I have ground quickly - it takes about 10 minutes to fix the factory bevels on these with a ceramic belt, buzz the first 1/8th of the business end off and establish a fresh bevel a little further back. They were nearly dead flat, too.
$2!!!!!!!! The gombeira cost more than the chisel (and is less forgiving).
Having beaten a few of these and ground and sharpened them - what new chisel would I take over them at any price? Nothing. V11 or LN? Absolutely not. It's possible that the latter might fare slightly better if you busted out a honing guide, but in the civilized world, we buff the tip of a chisel and these will sharpen in a tiny fraction of the time of the LN or V11, grind at least twice as fast (either by hand or with a grinder) and with the tip buffed will absolutely wear you out.
For relevant comparison here, what about vs. the old blue handled marples and the stanley 5000 series? These are better than those by a fairly large margin.
(top/right, factory fat bevels - bottom/left, my correction. For a $2 chisel, I didn't think it worth the time to wipe off the mill marks on the small lands, though it could be done in about 30 seconds on a second grinder that I have set up with a flat platen and tight belt - that being the grinder that I generally use to set the side of my chisels to width before finishing hand filing. ).
Why? Because though I didn't believe it at first, I've come to learn that small amounts of alloying elements (small bits of manganese, chrome and vanadium) actually improve the results in quick heat treat rather than "polluting the steel", and when those bits are not creating large free carbides because there isn't enough of them, other than a slight change in feel, their presence is undetectable (rather, they do seem to improve toughness a bit without getting to stupid levels like I've found in bearing steel - that's too tough and when an edge gets damaged, it won't let go, and that's a problem).
Long story short, I figured I'd buy a set of very cheap chisels here at the local harbor freight both to regrind and re-heat treat. If they're garbage, no problem - they're $12 for 6 of them.
However, after a reground the bevels on them and had proper time to be turned off by the tiny handles (mind you, most "experts" who buy lie nielsen and other chisels and pinch the tips go to euro and chinese retailers and complain about handles sizes that a competent user would like - one who would grip the handle and want to strike the chisel without hitting the web of their thumb), I found that nothing else needed to be changed.
....
what's the background on thinking that a cheap chisel could be good? The cost of CrV drill rod from alibaba is about $2 a pound. I don't know that there's a full pound in 6 chisels. The additives have made it so that a guy doesn't need to have special quenching oil and pay enormous attention to temperature and method to get good results. This is, however, true on something like white steel or 1095 - the results are highly sensitive to temperature control and an ideal quench. For a foreign company to have one someone clipping off pieces of drill rod and pounding them in a couple of sequential dies to forge them to near shape and then run them almost without human intervention through a fixturing machine - what would you be missing? You'd be missing highly wear resistant elements as well as stainlessness, etc. These are pointless in a chisel. If:
* the steel isn't horribly overheated when it's cut and forged (it's unlikely that someone would spend the time to keep it at super high heat as that would cost money)
* it's struck while still hot
* the hardening line gets it within a reasonble range twice for quench and temper
Nothing else is really required.
How do I also know that this is enough time to get a good result? For a very long time, razors have been made this way. The forging process isn't elaborate - it's a set of progressive dies to get drill rod set into a hollow shape to minimize grinding. It's probably beneficial to remove a bit of the grain direction in the drill rod (the best part of the long grain on the steel - the strongest part - is off the front of a straight razor where the edge *isn't*. The same is true of knives - rolled stock grain direction goes out the end, but it's better to have a knife chip the edge than have it break off at the tip. At any rate, it's possible to get very fine steel this way.
Well, by chance or on purpose, these chisels are at a place where I don't have the heart to reharden and temper them. I'd be gaining nothing unless there's a desire to see if they can be made bonkers hard (but then they wouldn't sharpen well on oilstones and all would be lost).
They abrade easily, aren't too heavy, the steel is exceptionally fine, and drops its wire edge on a washita as well as anything I've sharpened without having to be stupid hard to do that.
They also pass the practical test, which is to pare, then do an interval of chopping maple (not pine or something nice, but maple) briskly and then go back to paring again without showing any or any significant damage (wider than 1/2 inch and after chopping two cubic inches of maple, similar to 4 or 10- half blinds - no damage at all.
But the handles are crude/small and the lands on the side are fat. I have a belt grinder and can freehand them no problem.
....
this, however, leaves you guys in the dark as HF isn't an english chain. And as we know in the US, enjoy your HF todays, because HF's tomorrows are guaranteed to no-one. The next run could be trash, and the chisels after these if the same style isn't kept could also be junk.The 6 at the top are HFs - I ground the handle off of the one in the middle and put one of Gombeira on it after regrinding the side bevels. The ones on the bottom are blanks of mine et to be made into a more classic style of chisel (They are 26c3 steel, far more exotic, and perhaps won't end up being any better!)
And a look at the grind on the side of one that was unground, as well as one that I have ground quickly - it takes about 10 minutes to fix the factory bevels on these with a ceramic belt, buzz the first 1/8th of the business end off and establish a fresh bevel a little further back. They were nearly dead flat, too.
$2!!!!!!!! The gombeira cost more than the chisel (and is less forgiving).
Having beaten a few of these and ground and sharpened them - what new chisel would I take over them at any price? Nothing. V11 or LN? Absolutely not. It's possible that the latter might fare slightly better if you busted out a honing guide, but in the civilized world, we buff the tip of a chisel and these will sharpen in a tiny fraction of the time of the LN or V11, grind at least twice as fast (either by hand or with a grinder) and with the tip buffed will absolutely wear you out.
For relevant comparison here, what about vs. the old blue handled marples and the stanley 5000 series? These are better than those by a fairly large margin.
(top/right, factory fat bevels - bottom/left, my correction. For a $2 chisel, I didn't think it worth the time to wipe off the mill marks on the small lands, though it could be done in about 30 seconds on a second grinder that I have set up with a flat platen and tight belt - that being the grinder that I generally use to set the side of my chisels to width before finishing hand filing. ).
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