squaring stock, is it time to invest? or hone my skills

[mickthetree]

Hi All

Having been shaving small bits off lumps of wood for the past year and getting frustrated, I either need to look to a new solution or hone my skills.

Whenever I start to make a project I hit this first hurdle of milling my stock. I dont currently own any machinery but do have a number 7 and 5 1/2 which are flat and sharp and do sterling work. But I'm still not getting the accuracy I need.

I have a half descent bench now, but it still isn't perfectly flat, slight bow in the middle (about 2mm over 1.2m) and I'm attributing my struggle to this.

I have this vision that I can go out and get a planer thicknesser tomorrow and all will be well with the world and I can plough on with all of the projects that I'm struggling with.

But reading round on the forum and elsewhere I hear many people cursing the things as difficult to setup, not planing square and true, noisy, dusty, etc, etc.

Also I got into woodwork as a relaxing hobby and dont really want a shed full of machines (shed being delivered in 4 weeks now!), but if one can be bought that could let me up my game, then I'm , well game.

Watched videos on planing and have got my skills down quite well, but getting a board truly flat, square and thicknessed is evading me.

Another thought I've had is to maybe get a bandsaw and get my stock closer to start with, so its less work with the planes, although I'm not that far out to start with.

Can someone give me a shove in the right direction? I know I'm nearly there but dont want to go spending a load of money if I'd be better off improving my skills instead.

elp!

 

[Paul Chapman]

Hi Mick,

It's really not that difficult - but you need the right techniques and methods. If you can't get someone to show you how to do it, there are some excellent DVDs. One that I think is very good is "Rough to Ready" by Rob Cosman http://www.classichandtools.com/acatalo ... n_DVD.html

He shows you how to take a rough, sawn board and plane it up using hand tools.

It's like riding a bike - once you've got it, you've got it

Cheers :wink:

Paul (who doesn't have any machinery either).

 

[mickthetree]

Hi Paul

I have a few of his DVDs but didnt know about that one. I think I may have jumped the gun on getting the ones on making joints when I cant even get the wood square to start with! :lol: Excellent stuff.

Do you mill up all of your stock by hand then? And you get it all pretty close?

I have some stock I would like to resaw to get more out of it, but its ruddy hard work, even with the frame saw I made which is why I mention the bandsaw idea. I think that is one machine I wouldnt mind having.

Is it realistic to do all of my dimensioning by hand as a hobbist then?

"It's like riding a bike - once you've got it, you've got it" - can I hold you to that?

 

[Paul Chapman]

Do you mill up all of your stock by hand then?

Yes - I did woodwork at school in the 1950s and really enjoyed it, so I've never found planing a problem.

I've had other priorities so have not been able to justify the cost of machinery - but, like you, I'm thinking of getting a bandsaw. The hand tool only approach is fine but it means output is low. And some things, like re-sawing, quite difficult and wasteful by hand, so a bandsaw would be very useful and would save a lot of time.

Whether to do everything by hand or to get machines is a bit of a dilema in my view. You can do it all by hand but, as I say, output will be low. However, machinery can be just as frustrating unless you have good stuff, which can be expensive - and remember that with machines you have to factor in the cost of dust extraction, so it all adds up. However, I think a bandsaw would be a good buy.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Karl]

Some good advice from Paul.

Hand planing can be a chore, especially if you are using the wrong planes and/or they aren't set up well.

In my small workshop I use a benchtop thicknesser - really takes some of the labour out of reducing the thickness of timber. I also have a bandsaw which is great - don't know how I coped without one before.

Planing wood by hand isn't all that difficult. And it can be quite therapeutic when it's going well - now who said that....????? :lol:

Cheers

Karl

 

[OPJ]

I can understand why, in your situation, you wouldn't want a planer/thicknesser but, I do think a bandsaw would be a good buy for you. You already mentioned that you're struggling to resaw by hand and all the others points I would've suggested have already been covered. :wink:

You will still need to consider dust extraction though - in many ways, the fine dust from a bandsaw is worse than the larger chips produced from planers and the like. As noisy as they are, you could probably get away with a HPLV/workshop vacuum-type extractor; something fairly compact that doesn't have to cost a lot or consume much space. It is just the noise, really...

 

[mickthetree]

really appreciate all of your advice guys.

I think my next step is to get a really flat bench sorted. I'm sure this is hindering me, not having a descent reference surface.

I'll pickup that dvd and see how rob does it :wink:

Karl, can I ask what make and model you went for and what you have in the the way of dust extraction?

I keep coming back to this issue and want to get it cracked so thanks for taking a look.

 

[nimmaj]

hello,

i found myself in alsmost exactly the same position as you about three months ago. in the end i decided that i quite like planing and that i'd really like to stop resawing by hand!

i went for a record 350 bandsaw and the NVD750 from axminster.

the extractor works really well with the bandsaw. really love it. reckon it could have done with a bit more space between the inlets and the filters, though.

the bandsaw is, i think, pretty good. i'm currently reasonably sure that most of the issues i have with it have been to do with the user more than the saw!

initially there was a blown bearing but record replaced that v. quickly. i currently have several issues i'm trying to solve. i think i'm beginning to discover that i'd be a lot better off with a point fence for resawing than with the long fence supplied. particularly if you've not flattened the face of the board you're resawing. the wandering blade issue seems to go away if i cut a lot more slowly. new blades definitely help.

my biggest issue is that i do seem to get a lot of movement in wood both straight after resawing and gradually there after. presumably the former is to do with internal stress and the latter to do with moisture gradients. i gather from recent threads that most people try not to use wood with a lot of stress in it, so perhaps it's just bad selection on my part.

i guess all i'm saying is that there's a learning curve with resawing and bandsaws too!

hope this rambling post is of some use!

ben[/url]

 

[mickthetree]

Hi Ben

Any ramblings extremely welcome.

I have looked at bandsaws in the past but haven't really had the space. The new shed should help that though ;-)

Also looking into a wood machining evening course at high wycombe college. Couldnt afford it before but Could use their machines and learn some skills whilst I'm at it, before I buy anyting.

Know someone who did the course and most of the guys just used the course to machine up all of their stock for multiple projects.

OPJ I've been looking through your blog. Great stuff! That bench looks cracking.

 

[studders]

Just to throw a cat in with the flying rats.
I did end up getting a bandsaw and a planer/thicknesser, only a cheapish combo, and it has made the world of difference to my woody projects. I did try for some time with squaring up by hand but I just don't seem to have the 'knack'. I'd spend hours trying to get things squared, failing and getting really fed up. Now I can have the wood prepped in no time and get on with whatever it is I want to make.
You can't give up on the planes completely I've found, you still need to do 'some' tweaking here and there even on an almost finished piece.

 

[OPJ]

my biggest issue is that i do seem to get a lot of movement in wood both straight after resawing and gradually there after. presumably the former is to do with internal stress and the latter to do with moisture gradients. i gather from recent threads that most people try not to use wood with a lot of stress in it, so perhaps it's just bad selection on my part.

i guess all i'm saying is that there's a learning curve with resawing and bandsaws too!

Ben, you're right that there is also a learning curve to resawing wood. :wink: But, I wouldn't say this is necessarily down to the timber you have bought. These boards could be good quality but, maybe you are cutting in to them too soon? Ideally, you want to leave them for a few days (if it's kiln-dried) so they can settle down a bit. Air-dried can require longer waiting times - there was a big discussion about all this recently in another thread.

If you experience problems with boards bowing and cupping after you've made your cut then, it's better still to stack them as they are for a few more days until the unevenness has had a chance to balance itself out, before further machining or hand-preparation.

 

[Karl]

really appreciate all of your advice guys.

I think my next step is to get a really flat bench sorted. I'm sure this is hindering me, not having a descent reference surface.

I'll pickup that dvd and see how rob does it :wink:

Karl, can I ask what make and model you went for and what you have in the the way of dust extraction?

I keep coming back to this issue and want to get it cracked so thanks for taking a look.

Mick

I have the Record BS350. I think it's a great machine, although i've heard of others who haven't been happy with theirs. I haven't encountereed any problems with mine. And it comes with a 5 yr warranty.

DX - all I use is a Fein QA35 shop vac - it does the job adequately, although I think the extraction on the machine could be better - ie the vac sucks as much as the bandsaws DX design will allow. If that makes sense.

Cheers

Karl

 

[woodbloke]

Hi All

Having been shaving small bits off lumps of wood for the past year and getting frustrated, I either need to look to a new solution or hone my skills.

Whenever I start to make a project I hit this first hurdle of milling my stock. I dont currently own any machinery but do have a number 7 and 5 1/2 which are flat and sharp and do sterling work. But I'm still not getting the accuracy I need.

I have a half descent bench now, but it still isn't perfectly flat, slight bow in the middle (about 2mm over 1.2m) and I'm attributing my struggle to this.

I have this vision that I can go out and get a planer thicknesser tomorrow and all will be well with the world and I can plough on with all of the projects that I'm struggling with.

But reading round on the forum and elsewhere I hear many people cursing the things as difficult to setup, not planing square and true, noisy, dusty, etc, etc.

Also I got into woodwork as a relaxing hobby and dont really want a shed full of machines (shed being delivered in 4 weeks now!), but if one can be bought that could let me up my game, then I'm , well game.

Watched videos on planing and have got my skills down quite well, but getting a board truly flat, square and thicknessed is evading me.

Another thought I've had is to maybe get a bandsaw and get my stock closer to start with, so its less work with the planes, although I'm not that far out to start with.

Can someone give me a shove in the right direction? I know I'm nearly there but dont want to go spending a load of money if I'd be better off improving my skills instead.

elp!

Just my 2 euro's worth here. Planing stock by hand isn't difficult, but a set routine and decent, well set up hand tools are essential...as well as a flat bench :wink: That said, planing all your stock for even a simple project is nothing but a chore (IMHO) and sheer bloody hard work ('specially in this heat). However, when you look at the relative cost of decent Chiwanese equipment, as sold by Axminster it's so cheap, I can't see any reason not to have some machinery to take all the grind out of what is a pleasurable pastime. Using machinery takes all the grunt out of stock preparation and allows you the breathing space to concentrate on the finer aspects of what you're trying to make. True, a lot of this sort of machinery takes a bit of setting up, but it ain't rocket science. As it happens, Newt (Pete) has this little planer and reckons it's the 'dogs whiskers'
Pete also has this little bandsaw which is even more essential...'specially if things go wrong :shock: :lol:... required for 'doing a Rob'...that's me!! - Rob

 

[mickthetree]

Hi all and thanks for your thoughts on this.

I've putting some thought to it and am considering this. With the 15% off and free delivery (not sure that applies to heavy items) it seems a good price. I dont think it has a head lock facility though. Does this really matter?

In terms of waste, would some sort of bag on the end type arrangement suffice for a small machine like this? ie will it throw all of the waste out like my cheap RAS? or does one require some suck on the end of it to extract the chips and avoid blockage? If so would a B & Q macallister vac be sufficient? have enough suck? (changing the bag often is a compromise I'm willing to make) ;-)

The beds are cast aluminium. most of my timber is going to be well within the max capacitys of this machine so would these be accurate enough?

I guess a good engineers square would be useful in setup of the fence.

 

[wizer]

I've not seen or used it, but I'd say money invested in this machine would be like investing in chocolate teapots...

 

[ste_5150]

I'm in a similar position to Mick, so the views expressed here are helpful to me too. Thanks all - keep them coming!!

 

[wizer]

I've said this a million times on here, but I do believe in it. Machinery is just like hand tools. You get what you pay for. If you go into B&Q and buy a bog standard stanley no.5 it will be pretty diabolical I suspect. Buying a decent, well reviewed machine is money invested. It will litterally pay you back. Both in time and money. Your stress levels will be reduced and you will enjoy woodworking more. Through all the problems I've had with woodworking, you've never heard me complain about stock preparation and that's because I invested in one of the best pro-hobby machines (if not the best) you can buy. I realis the Jet P/T is a massive outlay. The cheaper Axiis well spoke of amongst it's owners. That's the minimum I'd want to trust my money to. Whilst newt may get on well with his 6" Axi planer, I've seen it in the flesh and it's very small. I wonder how quickly you'll grow out of it. Plus you'll need to then buy a thicknesser and then build stands for them and then find space for them both.

You don't have to have it right now. Save for a bit.

 

[mickthetree]

Hi wizer

Thanks for the honest advice ;-)

I am tempted by the Axminster planer as others have suggetsed, but this caught my eye (or more accurately the price did) so I thought I'd ask some opinions. getting a board three square using a jointer and finishing the thicknessing by hand could be a better way to go untill I can get money together for a thicknesser in the future.


edit

Posted this before your second reply.

I really appreciate your advice. wont have room for something of those sizes anytime soon so not an option for now. But I do intend to sort out a good bench first and also improve my hand tool skills.

To which end my new purchase just turned up! To the hand tool forum!!

 

[wizer]

Why buy twice ? What's the rush ?

I know it's easy for me to say because I could afford the Jet (at the time). But if you have half the cash now, then by xmas you might have the rest ?

and in the meantime you can buy your timber PAR and\or work on your hand tool skills.

 

[Gill]

Having purchased a planer/thicknesser some time ago, when the thicknesser broke I found myself with a good planer (jointer) mounted on a lump of iron taking up valuable workshop space. I've vowed never to buy a combination machine again.

My advice is to buy a good thicknesser and edge plane either by hand or with a router until you can afford a proper jointer. By then, of course, you might be so good you don't need a jointer .

Gill