Schwarz / Moxon(ish) Record 53 clone vice modification WIP

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shed9

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Not sure if this is the correct place to post, but as this is for my work bench and predominantly to work with hand tools, this seemed relevant. It's quite heavy in pics but I never hear people complain when they get put up so here goes.

My main bench is an odd one, a hybrid of extruded aluminium and MFT style top. It's a fair size and weighs a ton. The alloy use is an offshoot of a CNC self-build that went from horizontal to vertical, hence I had a left-over (and very expensive) base that was crying out for use.

The alloy has multiple channels which perfectly fit the Festool clamps so generally I have used this method to clamp wood to the side of the bench however this has not been the best approach most of the time and I really need a proper vice. Anyhow I've always liked the Moxon style vices but wanted to add my own touch and whilst I believe they are probably worth the money I couldn't justify that cost for something I can make myself, especially not when I wanted three vice's around the bench.

So I bought some Record 53 clones from Rutlands over the weekend with one of their 10% offers. These are effectively Record 53 derivative clones and copied by various suppliers from Axi to Eclipse, etc. They are not as tall (or heavy) as some of the usual suspects but given they will have wood backers this is kind of irrelevant to me. Also at £36 (with offer) a vice this is an absolute no-brainer for me and they are not too bad in quality.





I then removed the screw;



Set in the lathe and turned the end down to 22mm to this;



I then bought some 8" alloy cast hand wheels which were drilled out to 22mm;



Refitted to the vice with a tapped M5 grub screw;



And here is the finished vice;





Will post pics when fitted to the actual bench. The aim is to have two on one side and one on the end.

Anyone needing a vice or a replacement, although I haven't used them in anger yet I can't see how they can be churned out for >£40.

Any comments / advice appreciated.
 
Looks very very cool, but I've two thoughts:

The minor one: Wheels are not part of the "Moxon" design . The plate doesn't show hand wheels.
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodw ... se-omnibus
That details has been added by benchcraft.

The more important thought: These kind of vices have a quick release "gear". So you don't need a
handwheel to speed turn the spindle over long distances. Just open the quick release.
Seems like the wheel covers the QR, though.

That being said, I like wheels.

Cheers PEdder
 
pedder":1nv818yc said:
Looks very very cool, but I've two thoughts:

The minor one: Wheels are not part of the "Moxon" design . The plate doesn't show hand wheels.
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodw ... se-omnibus
That details has been added by benchcraft.

The more important thought: These kind of vices have a quick release "gear". So you don't need a
handwheel to speed turn the spindle over long distances. Just open the quick release.
Seems like the wheel covers the QR, though.

That being said, I like wheels.

Cheers PEdder

Hi Pedder, appreciate the original moxon design does not intergrate hand wheels but most people I find (and this may only be me) these days associate the name with the Benchcrafted version of 'moxon' vices, hence the reference - either way a moot point I agree.

I prefer hand wheels for vice control and that's the only reason I fitted them. I wanted the control to clamp and open as opposed to high speed spinning. The quick release function is jerky, works fine but hand wheels were one of my requirement for bench vices. I've always hated the usual tommy bars fitted myself.
 
Nice wheel and face vise modification!

A picky point, "Moxon vice" is just a name that Chris Schwarz gave to it. It is actually documented by Roubo, and the defining characteristic is that the vise resides on top of the bench, and is fixed by two hold downs. Some refer to their twin-screw vise as a Moxon. It is not one if attached to the face of a bench.

Regards from Perth

Derek
 
Actually it's taken from a plate in Joseph Moxon's "Mechanick Exercises" rather than Roubo's "l'art du menuisier" hence the name. Agree with you on it's placement though - definitely better on top rather than as a face vice.
 
Like that. Not sure whether my lathe will take the diameter through the headstock.

Where did you buy the alloy hand wheel? Will you be adding a knob?
 
Bedrock":wg044cnq said:
Like that. Not sure whether my lathe will take the diameter through the headstock.

Where did you buy the alloy hand wheel? Will you be adding a knob?

Hi Bedrock, wheel came from WDS;

http://www.wdsltd.co.uk/product/3690/al ... e-wds-8179

About £15 plus postage of around £6 per order.

I can't see me adding handles unless the need comes up.
 
Nice wheel and face vise modification!

A picky point, "Moxon vice" is just a name that Chris Schwarz gave to it. It is actually documented by Roubo, and the defining characteristic is that the vise resides on top of the bench, and is fixed by two hold downs. Some refer to their twin-screw vise as a Moxon. It is not one if attached to the face of a bench.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Derek,

I'm not sure, if Chris named the vise, but he put it on the top.
At the Moxon picture it was somehow mounted beside the top.
(Follow the link in my first entry.)

So maybe we really should call it the Schwarz vise.
Wich would be extremly funny in german.

Cheers
Pedder
 
Hi Pedder

Here is one link: http://www.popularwoodworking.com/workb ... oor-french

Here the relevant part is:

"We use these presses on the workbench with the rip tip, either for work or work to stick. In one or other of these different cases, we stop the press on the bench with two (holdfasts so) that it (will not move)."

Illustration of my Moxon vise ...

IDeclareThisBenchFinished_html_m3a7674d0.jpg


And another: http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodw ... moxon-vise

In the last link, CS wrote this:

7. Why do you call it the ‘Moxon vise?’

Double-screw vises have been invented and re-invented many times during the last 400 years. You can call them whatever you please. When I finally figured out the vise for myself, I was reading Moxon’s description of it. So that is the name I gave it. Feel free to call yours “Randle,” “Andre” or “Tipplewait.” The name is insignificant compared to what it can do to help you cut joinery.

— Christopher Schwarz


Regards from Perth

Derek
 
Thanks Derek!

The history of names often is funny and fare from being logicaly.

I just became aware ths blog entry from Stephen Shepard:
http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=266

So I seem tro be completly wrong and ist was in Moxon's book to put the vise on top of the table.

Still no wheels, though. :wink:

Cheers
Pedder
 
John15":2984jqv3 said:
I imagine the vise with a wheel cannot be cinched up as tightly as one with a bar.

John

Twin screw vises hold so well (in general) that I don't think maximum torque is a key requirment.

I'm not sure about wheel and q/r though. I thought the whole point of the Benchcrafted
design and build is that the screws work so smoothly that the wheels can be literally
spun (flywheel effect) for fast movement, making q/r unnecessary.

BugBear
 
John15":3b7vf03w said:
I imagine the vise with a wheel cannot be cinched up as tightly as one with a bar.

John

I use an 8" diameter handwheel on my home-brew leg vice. It tightens up just fine.
 
Nice solution shed. Do you think it is tight enough with just a grub screw, or do you also have an interference fit of wheel and axle?

About the naming, I think you should call it a Studley vice. Wheels were popular on piano makers benches and Studley is the most famous of them all. The Moxon vice really should be called the Felibien vice. Moxon stole a lot of images and ideas from Felibien (and he made quite a few errors in the interpreatation). There is a very good image from the thing we call a moxon vice in the Felibien book.
 
BB and DTR,

Sorry, I didn't make myself very clear. I meant a single wheel on the Record type vice from Rutlands

John
 
Corneel":1a78jxib said:
Nice solution shed. Do you think it is tight enough with just a grub screw, or do you also have an interference fit of wheel and axle?

About the naming, I think you should call it a Studley vice. Wheels were popular on piano makers benches and Studley is the most famous of them all. The Moxon vice really should be called the Felibien vice. Moxon stole a lot of images and ideas from Felibien (and he made quite a few errors in the interpreatation). There is a very good image from the thing we call a moxon vice in the Felibien book.

It would be even more accurate - and striking - if the vice was also chromed.

Regards from Perth

Derek
 
As pointed out - it would make sense if a wheel is desirable to use a non QR vice, the plain (acme?) thread is better suited to being spun up quicker (and the vice would be cheaper).
 
It's not long until April 1st. Somewhere in a secret hideaway in Canada, a small team is probably currently perfecting the 21st century Moxon vice - two parallel large diameter ballscrews, totally enclosed and protected from sawdust, each with a gearbox and stepper motor, linked wirelessly to the command module at the end of the bench. Yes, folks - the world's first CNC Moxon is, in all probability, taking shape even as I type. Let's hope they do a 240V version for the UK market.

Eat your hearts out, Benchcrafted.

(Edit to add - This is emphatically NOT an attempted snidey pop at the OP. I'm quite happy with the tommy bar on my vice, but there's room in woodworking for many other approaches. It was Derek's reference to chromed vices that set me off....and no, I wasn't having a pop at Derek, either.)
 
John15":3i97651t said:
I imagine the vise with a wheel cannot be cinched up as tightly as one with a bar.
John15":3i97651t said:
I meant a single wheel on the Record type vice from Rutlands
DTR":3i97651t said:
I use an 8" diameter handwheel on my home-brew leg vice. It tightens up just fine.
I can concur with DTR on this one, an 8” wheel works plenty for torque.

bugbear":3i97651t said:
I'm not sure about wheel and q/r though. I thought the whole point of the Benchcrafted
design and build is that the screws work so smoothly that the wheels can be literally
spun (flywheel effect) for fast movement, making q/r unnecessary.
phil.p":3i97651t said:
As pointed out - it would make sense if a wheel is desirable to use a non QR vice, the plain (acme?) thread is better suited to being spun up quicker (and the vice would be cheaper).
The q/r works fine but not the most finessed feature on a face vice. The wheel gives better control over a tommy bar for me, especially when man-handling large pieces. Also, two of the vices will be placed on one side of the bench which I may chain link in the future so the wheels would make this conversion much easier to operate and function. Also, it was cheaper to buy the q/r vice over a non-q/r vice and I'm not going to complain having the extra functionality.

Corneel":3i97651t said:
Nice solution shed. Do you think it is tight enough with just a grub screw, or do you also have an interference fit of wheel and axle?
Cheers Corneel, the wheel is actually interference fitted to the shaft and the grub screw is there as backup really.
 
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