Saw stop ( USA )

[Jacob]

The Power Tool Institute in the USA, an agglomerate of tool makers including Festool, owned by TTS Tooltechnic which is also the parent company of Sawstop, says this about the Consumer Product Safety Commission's proposed active injury mitigation on all table saws: https://www.powertoolinstitute.com/pti-pages/it-table-saw-facts.asp
My wheels are spinning and I have neither the credentials nor cognitive ability to assess their conclusions though some of you may have both. I am grateful to the forum members for their thoughtful, occasionally heated, comments. Thanks to you, I now have two 24" push sticks and more awareness of my fallibility. As Rodney King said, "Can't we all get along?"

Well there you go then! Quoting from the above.

"..........Unintended Consequences Of The SawStop Technology
• Data supplied by SawStop concerning the number of table saw units sold and the number of reported blade contact incidences, demonstrates that operators are nearly five times more likely to contact the saw blade of a SawStop saw as opposed to the operator of a conventional table saw.
• Logic dictates that this increase in accident rate on SawStop saws is due primarily to a user’s decision to use the blade guard less frequently or not at all due to a “sense of security” in having the SawStop flesh-sensing technology on the saw.
• The reduced rate of using the blade guarding system will result in increased rate of facial or eye injuries caused by high velocity particles ejected by the saw blade or injuries caused by workpiece kickback.
• The increased cost of even the least expensive table saws, as discussed in this document, may result in power tool users resorting to unsafe methods (for example: using portable hand held circular saw in inverted position) to accomplish cuts normally performed on a table saw.
• The rising population in the 1980's of the affordable and safe benchtop saw resulted in a decrease in accidents from circular saws being used improperly. If benchtop saws become drastically more expensive or manufacturers withdraw from the market, there is likely to be a return to improper use of circular saws and unintended declines in safety..........."

Just say NO to Saw Stop! I thought it was a rip off from the start

 

[mudman]

Well there you go then! Quoting from the above.

"..........Unintended Consequences Of The SawStop Technology
• Data supplied by SawStop concerning the number of table saw units sold and the number of reported blade contact incidences, demonstrates that operators are nearly five times more likely to contact the saw blade of a SawStop saw as opposed to the operator of a conventional table saw.
• Logic dictates that this increase in accident rate on SawStop saws is due primarily to a user’s decision to use the blade guard less frequently or not at all due to a “sense of security” in having the SawStop flesh-sensing technology on the saw.
• The reduced rate of using the blade guarding system will result in increased rate of facial or eye injuries caused by high velocity particles ejected by the saw blade or injuries caused by workpiece kickback.
• The increased cost of even the least expensive table saws, as discussed in this document, may result in power tool users resorting to unsafe methods (for example: using portable hand held circular saw in inverted position) to accomplish cuts normally performed on a table saw.
• The rising population in the 1980's of the affordable and safe benchtop saw resulted in a decrease in accidents from circular saws being used improperly. If benchtop saws become drastically more expensive or manufacturers withdraw from the market, there is likely to be a return to improper use of circular saws and unintended declines in safety..........."

Just say NO to Saw Stop! I thought it was a rip off from the start

That whole thing, not just what you've selectively snipped above, reads like the grasping at straws that you are famous for to back up your strange prejudices.
They haven't provided any real evidence and is obviously a desperate attempt to avoid having to incorporate technology that they will have to pay for.
I can imagine you reading that then punching the air with glee and excitedly creating that post believing that it validates your position. Quite pathetic really.

 

[Doug71]

If my saw had SawStop I would use it exactly the same as I do now, fully guarded and with push sticks. An unguarded blade scares the hell out of me whether it comes with finger sensing technology or not, plus take the guard off and you can get all kinds of stuff thrown at you.

I will hopefully never need SawStop but it would be nice to have it just in case.

I watched a Badgers Workshop video last night and he was using his table saw without a guard, he was just ripping down some OSB so no need to not use it. I think it's such bad form as he is the kind of person beginners will copy. Many of the British Youtubers seem to have given up on blade guards, even the ones with joinery businesses, I find it staggering that anyone with a business would film themselves blatantly ignoring the hse woodworking machinery regulations.

 

[Jacob]

Saw-stop development still on going!
Haven't seen this SCM vid before. I thought it might be a spoof but you never know.

They've made the huge leap to a saw-stop which stops before you actually touch it! Clever boys! Obvious really.
Still got all the other probs of saw stops in general: costs a bomb, not available as retro fit on millions of machines which don't have it, not available on spindle or planer, etc, can be switched off, can fail like any electronic device ...etc etc
But maybe the basic idea of a light coming on when you are too near the blade could be retro fitted, as a warning, but without the actual blade stopping?
Could be made to ring an alarm, which would be good as the only people who would need the thing in the first place would have to be blind to start with! Could be a training method for beginner push stick users?
I wonder what other developments are on the way - something along the lines of an ejector seat perhaps?

I think it was a spoof then. You just can't tell nowadays!
Looks like SawStop is a dead duck.

 

[Cabinetman]

I think Jacob is correct and that having the flesh sensor does and will promote a feeling of "it doesn’t matter" as the technology will save me, and that is never going to be a good frame of mind to be in when using a table saw.
Ian

 

[Doug71]

I think it was a spoof then. You just can't tell nowadays!
Looks like SawStop is a dead duck.

The SCM system looks the same as what Altendorf are doing.

 

[Cabinetman]

Doug, sorry you just need to start that vid earlier, but that is an incredible piece of kit.
But expensive, commensurate with the price of the saw really I suppose, uses cameras and Ai for those who didn’t watch.
Ian

 

[Inspector]

America was built on people that crated monopolies and the masses worship that philosophy. Someone else is basically doing the same and a monopoly. The same masses hate him for it. Such a hard bunch to please.

Pete

 

[Doug71]

Doug, sorry you just need to start that vid earlier, but that is an incredible piece of kit.
But expensive, commensurate with the price of the saw really I suppose, uses cameras and Ai for those who didn’t watch.
Ian

Thanks Ian, hopefully should start at the beginning now, don't know what went wrong there.

 

[Rhossydd]

I think Jacob is correct and that having the flesh sensor does and will promote a feeling of "it doesn’t matter" as the technology will save me,

Do you think that happens more widely ? Do people drive assuming that the braking assist technology will stop them having a crash etc ? For that matter would people really trust the technology of saw stop enough to take serious risks ?

 

[Against_The_Grain]

If there's one thing I've learned in almost seventy years of industrial woodworking, no matter how many regulations, practical guards, extensive machine and safety training you put in place, someone will still manage to hurt themselves regardless and invariably it will be their fault or the employer's fault for not following the guidance that's been laid down for the last century. Much like with vehicles, you can set speed limits but people will still drive over them because they feel they can and are in complete control, and everyone thinks that until they are suddenly not in control and end up in the local rag "in memoriam" after colliding with something immovable.

Hence why I'm all for unobtrusive, passive measures like the Sawstop, Felder PCS, SCM Blade-off, SnapBrake, etc... If you take all the precautions you should and follow the safety guidance, there's very little to go wrong, but in the event someone has a lapse of judgement there's that extra element of safeguarding that prevents serious injuries. Having spent time cleaning other people's pink splatter, blood, and bone shards off machinery after serious accidents, I don't think anything that might prevent that from happening is a wholly bad idea even if it's made largely redundant by safe working practices.

 

[Spectric]

no matter how many regulations, practical guards, extensive machine and safety training you put in place, someone will still manage to hurt themselves regardless and invariably it will be their fault or the employer's fault for not following the guidance that's been laid down for the last century.

That is human nature, some people are just accidents looking to happen and nothing will protect them from themselves. The problem with any safety system is that it should work 100% of the time, in other words can be relied on and have a low probability of failure. In safety systems you have to accept any engineered solution can fail and one of the main criteria is that the system fails to a known safe state and not a dangerous one so what level of testing is used with the sawstop? It is no good trusting it and getting into bad habits without knowing the system is functioning otherwise it becomes more dangerous with it than without as an unknown failure could be lurking that you only discover the hard way.

 

[Bingy man]

No, you would continue to employ all the good practices that you have been employing in your own workshop. Another very strange reason. Others might not have it so you shouldn't either. Some vintage cars don't have seatbelts, does that mean we shouldn't have mandated them in more modern cars in case people forget when they get in a vintage car?

I believe that originally the saw stop activating did destroy things and required a large outlay to reinstate. Don't know about nowadays.

I can appreciate the reasoning that this safety device may encourage bad practice in a few, but why should that be a reason to discourage the majority from buying such a machine?

The original saw stop destroyed both the blade and the sawstop cartridge thingy as well. Not awAre if the latest version does the same .

 

[hlvd]

No I haven't. I don't own a table saw, I don't have the space but if I did, then I would be keen to have one with a saw stop.
And there you go with the cognitive bias again although you are displaying a fair degree of confirmation bias as well. Your arguments are specious in the extreme but as is usual with you, no reasonable argument will be countenanced and you will continue to take you own position and put forward outlandish arguments to support it. So what's the point? I still think your argument against them that it hasn't been developed for other machines is amazing. That you actually think this is a reason for not installing it is quite frankly gobsmacking.

You don’t own a Table Saw yet here you are lecturing experienced users about operating Table Saws

 

[Bingy man]

Apparently you can tie yourself to a rope that given your weight and the height of the platform you then jump to the ground from hundreds of feet but the rope will save you - I still wouldn’t do it- the same goes for anything with multiple moving parts or sharp blades or cutters or any kind of flesh eating teeth I have no intention of putting any body parts in its path , but the young man killed in a industrial shredder may well of been saved from a terrible death with some kind of flesh sensing technology. The manager who sent him into the machine recently got 7 years .

 

[mudman]

You don’t own a Table Saw yet here you are lecturing experienced users about operating Table Saws

I'm not the one lecturing. That'll be the one who wants everyone to reject all notion of fitting a safety device to a potential flesh shredder.
But please point out where I have tried to tell people how to operate a table saw. I have taken issue with Jacob's intransigence that borders on the pathological, not how others choose to put themselves at risk.
But then,

 

[John Brown]

Do you think that happens more widely ? Do people drive assuming that the braking assist technology will stop them having a crash etc ? For that matter would people really trust the technology of saw stop enough to take serious risks ?

I believe that has been found to be the case, people drive less carefully because of sear belts, air bags etc.
With vehicles one also has to consider other road users, such as pedestrians and cyclists. They may benefit from improved braking, for example, but not from seat belts or air bags.
I suppose the question is whether the benefits outweigh the negatives.
I have to say that I found that report quoted by Jacob interesting (yes, I know he didn't post the link - I can't remember who did...), but I'm also amazed that there could be any question of mandating something that is under patent.

 

[Jacob]

......... Do people drive assuming that the braking assist technology will stop them having a crash etc ?

They certainly do! Everybody drives in a manner which would be impossible without braking technology

 

[Rhossydd]

They certainly do! Everybody drives in a manner which would be impossible without braking technology

Say something that says you've never driven a modern car with brake assist technology......

 

[Jacob]

Say something that says you've never driven a modern car with brake assist technology......

It's a matter of degree. All vehicles have brake technology with varying degrees of refinement.
The most refined are "driverless" vehicles with 100% automatic braking which hopes to eliminate human error but can't do the same for the wrong sort of mechanical/electronic failure.
The bloke in the video above would lose a few fingers if he carried on doing that demo for long enough.