Saw and Chisel advice

[worn thumbs]

I am absolutely staggered that anybody would rip 8" sapele with a handsaw.It seems to be force of circumstance rather than a freely chosen course of action.If anybody makes a choice of confining their leisure activities to the use of hand tools only,then obviously they need the correct tool for the task and in good order.

The original post in this thread referred to dovetail saws and they are traditionally supplied with crosscut teeth.Some people have read James Krenov and taken his preference for tooth shape as gospel rather than a matter of preference.

 

[Jelly]

I am absolutely staggered that anybody would rip 8" sapele with a handsaw.It seems to be force of circumstance rather than a freely chosen course of action.

Indeed, in the past I've needed to resaw wide boards and have always headed out to a nearby sawmill to have them done, huws grey used to knock some money off the hourly rate if I helped the sawyer and backed off the saw myself.

On the other hand...Hand ripping and hand re-sawing smaller material is practical enough, and a skill every woodworker would be well advised to develop, even if they scarcely need to use it; personally I find it quicker to use a Handsaw to rip strips of thin material (usually for mouldings) than to go set up the dimension saw with the rip fence, change over the extraction from the P/T and then clean up when I've done.

 

[Jacob]

...
I don't suppose you saw very much ripping or resawing done with handsaws at all - any "practical" professional would use a powertool, or else fail to make a living......

Rip sawing is quite common if you are working on site. It's often quicker to rip a 1" board by hand over a pair of saw stools, rather than fiddling about setting up a circular saw. Or there may be no electricity.
But though I own at least one proper rip hand saw (4 tpi filed straight across etc) I'd often not have it and would use a crosscut hand saw instead. A bit slower and more effort.
8" sapele - well you'd do it if you had to! :shock:

 

[Billy Flitch]

The original post in this thread referred to dovetail saws and they are traditionally supplied with crosscut teeth.Some people have read James Krenov and taken his preference for tooth shape as gospel rather than a matter of preference.

Dont take this the wrong way but I must point out that, that information is wrong traditional dovetail saws are filed rip .

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

The original post in this thread referred to dovetail saws and they are traditionally supplied with crosscut teeth.Some people have read James Krenov and taken his preference for tooth shape as gospel rather than a matter of preference.

Dont take this the wrong way but I must point out that, that information is wrong traditional dovetail saws are filed rip .

certainly if you want to cut dovetails with your dovetail saw then you want rip teeth as it is a ripping action, same with a tenon saw. Personally I find that I can also cut shoulders fine with a fine rip toothed saw (12 tpi or less) but I do have a mid sized tenon saw (carcass saw?) with crosscut teeth. It is true that larger rip saws are usually replaced by table or bandsaws, but sometimes it is quicker to stay at the bench, however for resawing 8" sapele I would definitely walk across the workshop to the bandsaw.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

The original post in this thread referred to dovetail saws and they are traditionally supplied with crosscut teeth.

Well - yes and no. By the 1970's, there were two types of backsaw available from ironmongers and tool merchants, small ones - dovetail saws - and larger ones - 'tenon' saws, both supplied with teeth sharpened crosscut. That was certainly the case when I started woodworking in the 1980s. However, that was not always the case.

Benjamin Seaton's toolchest (1797) contains four backsaws. A 9" 19tpi dovetail saw, an 11" 15tpi carcase saw, a 14" 12 tpi sash saw and a 19" 10tpi tenon saw. All are filed rip. Holtzappfel ('Turning and Mechanical Manipulation', Volume II, 1843) lists the same four varieties of backsaw. Later catalogues show fewer varieties, with the longer backsaws dropping out of availability in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The saw names are descriptive of their use - dovetail saws for small dovetails, carcase saws for the larger dovetails on furniture carcassing, sash saws for the small tenons associated with window sashes, and tenon saws for the larger tenons in entrance doors.

I think the reason for the change in saw availability is the rise of woodworking machinery. Seaton would have had to do all his sawing by hand, so had saws that would cope with the smallest dovetails, up to the largest tenon cheeks. However, as more joint-cutting was done by machine, especially in the joinery trades, tradesmen had less need of the larger saws. By the late 20th century, few joiners would routinely cut M&T joints by hand, and in consequence used their backsaws mainly for trimming stock to length, for which a crosscut filing makes sense.

However, cutting dovetail joints and tenon cheeks both involve rip cutting, so having saws filed rip for those tasks makes sense if you do them by hand with any frequency, or have no joint-cutting machines. It certainly amazed me in about 1999 when I first used a rip-filed dovetail saw how much quicker and cleaner it cut than the old crosscut filed one I'd had since the mid 1980s. I quickly discovered that the same applied to tenon saws. We're rediscovering some of the basics of handtool use gradually lost to the rise of the machine age, that's all.

 

[bugbear]

The original post in this thread referred to dovetail saws and they are traditionally supplied with crosscut teeth.

Well - yes and no.

(excellent detail from 1800 to the present day snipped)

Indeed; It's that dangerous wriggly word "traditional". Covers a multitude of sins.

In reality, earlier traditions are followed by later traditions, very much in manner of the fleas "ad infinitum".

BugBear

 

[D_W]

Relax the rake on a rip dovetail saw and crosscut with it. You'll be surprised how well it works.

I recall reading somewhere that the veritas dovetail saw is already filed rip with 14 degree rake - which would make for a dovetail saw that would actually crosscut fairly well.

In a conversation with George Wilson, I recall (and if this is inaccurate, it's what I remember being inaccurate, as George does not provide inaccurate historical information) that the idea of crosscut filing a saw was fairly foreign a little over 200 years ago.

(there is not much given up crosscutting with small tooth rip saws so long as they can be started. They are a bit harder on the backside of the cut, but you can knife your mark and eliminate that, or just pay attention to what back side of the cut is not critical. The difference is small until the teeth get above dovetail size, especially in harder wood.)

 

[undergroundhunter]

All my tenon saws are filed rip with no rake and they crosscut fine, all I do is knife the line all the way round. As regards resawing thick stock I don't have the luxury of a machine to do it and to be honest find it quite therapeutic.

Matt

 

[DTR]

Relax the rake on a rip dovetail saw and crosscut with it. You'll be surprised how well it works.

I recall reading somewhere that the veritas dovetail saw is already filed rip with 14 degree rake - which would make for a dovetail saw that would actually crosscut fairly well.

In a conversation with George Wilson, I recall (and if this is inaccurate, it's what I remember being inaccurate, as George does not provide inaccurate historical information) that the idea of crosscut filing a saw was fairly foreign a little over 200 years ago.

(there is not much given up crosscutting with small tooth rip saws so long as they can be started. They are a bit harder on the backside of the cut, but you can knife your mark and eliminate that, or just pay attention to what back side of the cut is not critical. The difference is small until the teeth get above dovetail size, especially in harder wood.)

+1. I find myself using my 12" crosscut less and less in favour of my 14" rip. The extra length makes for a quicker cut, while the resultant surface is still ok. In any case, any show surface will be finished off the plane or chisel anyway, not the saw

 

[OM99]

So rip cut it is. You guys like to confuse people

I know one of each would solve the problem but as only getting one for the moment then will get RIP

Olivier

 

[undergroundhunter]

There is always more than one way to skin a cat, in an ideal world you would try before you buy.

Matt

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Olivier - don't worry about it too much! I think it's fair to say that if it's got teeth, it'll cut wood - and all the better if they're sharp. Vintage or modern, resharpenable or hardpoint, doesn't really matter - they all cut wood. Whether they're rip or crosscut matters rather less than their being sharp, in truth!

There does tend to be a lot of discussion of relative minutiae on internet forums. You'll find people arguing about whether rip saws for softwood should have 5 degrees of rake or 10 degrees of rake (both will cut perfectly adequately, one may be marginally faster than the other). You'll find deep discussions about handle hang angles, whether canted backs help prevent overcuts at the back of a board, how many thous of set they have on their saws, and all sorts of other stuff - usually from people who don't do much sawing.

In general, use big saws with large teeth for deep cuts in thick stock, and small saws for shallower cuts in thinner stock. If you can find a saw with a comfortable handle, that's a nice bonus. Sharp saws cut much better than dull ones. Rip filed saws cut better along the grain than crosscut saws, and crosscut saws cut a bit better (but not dramatically better) across grain. Once you get tooth sizes smaller than about 12 tpi, it really doesn't seem to make much difference whether saws are filed rip or cross, but it does make a difference with bigger tooth sizes. Sharpening rip-toothed saws is easier than sharpening crosscut toothed ones, especially when they have small teeth, like dovetail saws do.

And that, pretty much, is all anybody needs to know about woodworking saws. Most of the rest is opinion or personal preference.

 

[OM99]

Olivier - don't worry about it too much! I think it's fair to say that if it's got teeth, it'll cut wood - and all the better if they're sharp. Vintage or modern, resharpenable or hardpoint, doesn't really matter - they all cut wood. Whether they're rip or crosscut matters rather less than their being sharp, in truth!

There does tend to be a lot of discussion of relative minutiae on internet forums. You'll find people arguing about whether rip saws for softwood should have 5 degrees of rake or 10 degrees of rake (both will cut perfectly adequately, one may be marginally faster than the other). You'll find deep discussions about handle hang angles, whether canted backs help prevent overcuts at the back of a board, how many thous of set they have on their saws, and all sorts of other stuff - usually from people who don't do much sawing.

In general, use big saws with large teeth for deep cuts in thick stock, and small saws for shallower cuts in thinner stock. If you can find a saw with a comfortable handle, that's a nice bonus. Sharp saws cut much better than dull ones. Rip filed saws cut better along the grain than crosscut saws, and crosscut saws cut a bit better (but not dramatically better) across grain. Once you get tooth sizes smaller than about 12 tpi, it really doesn't seem to make much difference whether saws are filed rip or cross, but it does make a difference with bigger tooth sizes. Sharpening rip-toothed saws is easier than sharpening crosscut toothed ones, especially when they have small teeth, like dovetail saws do.

And that, pretty much, is all anybody needs to know about woodworking saws. Most of the rest is opinion or personal preference.

thank you

 

[Jelly]

Excellent précis of how differing saws do the same thing better in differing circumstances.

Most of the rest is opinion or personal preference.

Personally preference is a massive thing however, and instant...

I recently took my partner into the workshop to learn some basic skills (at her request), she couldn't make my prized Crosscut Tennon Saw work for her for love nor money, but given a sash saw filed with finer rip teeth and a more relaxed rake, she was quickly* (say 30 mins or 2 dozen practice cuts) cutting square and true using only saw and bench hook.

She doesn't know (or care... Yet) about the differences, but knows that one works well for her, and one doesn't suit her.

* I wish it had been as easy for me to learn, took me days worth of practicing to perfect that simple operation.

 

[bugbear]

Excellent précis of how differing saws do the same thing better in differing circumstances.

Most of the rest is opinion or personal preference.

Personally preference is a massive thing however, and instant...

I recently took my partner into the workshop to learn some basic skills (at her request), she couldn't make my prized Crosscut Tennon Saw work for her for love nor money, but given a sash saw filed with finer rip teeth and a more relaxed rake, she was quickly* (say 30 mins or 2 dozen practice cuts) cutting square and true using only saw and bench hook.

She doesn't know (or care... Yet) about the differences, but knows that one works well for her, and one doesn't suit her.

* I wish it had been as easy for me to learn, took me days worth of practicing to perfect that simple operation.

I'd have said(guessed!) that the differences in rake and pitch were more important than fleam, in that comparison.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

You can use either but cross-cut filed saws cut more easily across the grain than rip-cut but also cut along the grain but not as well as rip cut. On balance a cross cut is more useful generally which is why they are so universal. Simple stuff really.

 

[Jelly]

I'd have said(guessed!) that the differences in rake and pitch were more important than fleam, in that comparison.

BugBear

I think you'd be right, my take was that pushing the big, aggressive teeth smoothly was asking a little bit much...

But it shows how people's physiques and general co-ordination will shape their preferences, in a way that's real to them but useless as advice to someone else.

You can use either but cross-cut filed saws cut more easily across the grain than rip-cut but also cut along the grain but not as well as rip cut. On balance a cross cut is more useful generally which is why they are so universal. Simple stuff really.

In terms of backsaws I find big crosscut and small rip to be most useful, for big tennons I'd never saw the cheeks just shoulders , knock it off with a big chisel or axe, and pare the last bit down...

 

[OM99]

Received the Chisels and the handle on the 20mm and 26mm are really big (only got small hands), but apart from that and i am sure will get used to it. They are very nice and seems really sharp already without fettling them, they should last me a very long time.

Olivier

 

[Jacob]

Received the Chisels and the handle on the 20mm and 26mm are really big (only got small hands), but apart from that and i am sure will get used to it. They are very nice and seems really sharp already without fettling them, they should last me a very long time.

Olivier

If they need fettling of any sort you should send them back. They should just need a quick hone.
There's more time wasted and total b*ll*x talked about chisel "prepping" than almost any other woodworking subject! Ignore it all!