johnnyb
Established Member
but it's important they are perfectly square. hence they are nailed to a little bit of wood on the bench( to make sure there square during aggressive nailing.)
Sash bar dimensions for historical windows
- Thread starter steve355
- Start date
Help Support UKworkshop.co.uk:
johnnyb
Established Member
guys please just chill with the rod stick thing we were doing so well!
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
Bit of old board leaning up in the shed with scribbles all over it
In a better light it looks an incoherent mess but is in fact an old rod. i.e. full size drawing of something or other
It's the bottom bullnose step of a staircase. No recollection of the meaning of the figures and scribbles, but all part of the process
Heres the riser, kerfed and wet, being bent a bit to get it started
Here bent a bit more with the blocks ready to be glued and wedged.
In situ with moulded edge board on top
Finished with tread on top
It's a good example of a complicated rod - a full sized drawing on a board, actually used to size components and to build the object
It's not a story stick, though a separate "story rod" could have been used for the stair measurements
PS If in doubt read "Modern Practical Joinery" George Ellis.
In a better light it looks an incoherent mess but is in fact an old rod. i.e. full size drawing of something or other
It's the bottom bullnose step of a staircase. No recollection of the meaning of the figures and scribbles, but all part of the process
Heres the riser, kerfed and wet, being bent a bit to get it started
Here bent a bit more with the blocks ready to be glued and wedged.
In situ with moulded edge board on top
Finished with tread on top
It's a good example of a complicated rod - a full sized drawing on a board, actually used to size components and to build the object
It's not a story stick, though a separate "story rod" could have been used for the stair measurements
PS If in doubt read "Modern Practical Joinery" George Ellis.
Last edited:
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
It's all in Ellis - and your zinc templates, which I'd never noticed before. Though I think they'd be for drawing on to the rod - not the timber itself.
Adam W.
A Major Clanger
It's important to clarify this because the OP is getting confused and thinks he needs drawings, rods, storey sticks, MDF shelving and other paraphernalia, which he does not.
Jacob your drawing is called a rod because rods/battens were used to carry the marking out of all of the elements of the object before paper was available (I've explained what a storey stick is and you can chose to either believe it or not as you wish).
You mentioned drawings on floors in cathedrals. These were created by masons to work out the fine details, not to work out the overall dimensions of the cathedral. Which is why only small details are recorded on the floor in a palimpsest.
We see all of the drawings at the same time because archaeologists have removed all of the layers of whitewash which reveal the palimpsest. There are no scale drawings of cathedrals on these floors, only full scale elevations and sections of details or parts of details. There are no historical records of masons using rods, but I believe they did as a result of my research into fan vaults, but it conjecture on my part and has yet to be proved.
Medieval carpenters worked their dimensions out on a stick as they didn't have access to paper and didn't need it anyway.
The French layout their full scale stereotomy drawings on a floor, it is not known if English carpenters did the same as we have no historical record of carpenters floors and we have a very different method and culture of setting out timber frames than they do and it is pure conjecture to say otherwise.
And could we keep the thread to marking out sash windows only and not use it as a show and tell for assorted bits and bobs.
And that's where I get off the thread and leave you to it, Thank you and enjoy.
Jacob your drawing is called a rod because rods/battens were used to carry the marking out of all of the elements of the object before paper was available (I've explained what a storey stick is and you can chose to either believe it or not as you wish).
You mentioned drawings on floors in cathedrals. These were created by masons to work out the fine details, not to work out the overall dimensions of the cathedral. Which is why only small details are recorded on the floor in a palimpsest.
We see all of the drawings at the same time because archaeologists have removed all of the layers of whitewash which reveal the palimpsest. There are no scale drawings of cathedrals on these floors, only full scale elevations and sections of details or parts of details. There are no historical records of masons using rods, but I believe they did as a result of my research into fan vaults, but it conjecture on my part and has yet to be proved.
Medieval carpenters worked their dimensions out on a stick as they didn't have access to paper and didn't need it anyway.
The French layout their full scale stereotomy drawings on a floor, it is not known if English carpenters did the same as we have no historical record of carpenters floors and we have a very different method and culture of setting out timber frames than they do and it is pure conjecture to say otherwise.
And could we keep the thread to marking out sash windows only and not use it as a show and tell for assorted bits and bobs.
And that's where I get off the thread and leave you to it, Thank you and enjoy.
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
And if you are still not sure it's all in Ellis!
I hadn't read it closely to be honest but it's pretty much as I was taught; I was beginning to wonder!
Sgian Dubh
Established Member
Well, if nothing else, this has been a fascinating thread to follow. It, for one, illustrates to me yet again, and as an experienced furniture designer/maker (or at least I like to thinks so) and very used to working through tricky technical problems how very different are the challenges I've faced over the decades to the challenges highly skilled and knowledgeable joiners face. I've learnt a lot here one way or another and this thread has reminded me of how little I know about the wider field of woodworking outside my specialism.
On a side note I've always thought that a rod, something I've used many times, is the same as a what Americans call a story stick, but now? Jings, even I'm now a bit confused: rod, story stick, storey stick ... I think I give up, ha, ha.
Enjoyed ploughing through all the contributions though. Slainte.
On a side note I've always thought that a rod, something I've used many times, is the same as a what Americans call a story stick, but now? Jings, even I'm now a bit confused: rod, story stick, storey stick ... I think I give up, ha, ha.
Enjoyed ploughing through all the contributions though. Slainte.
As I said, as an inexperienced person trying to do this for the first time using the story stick method, based on following the detailed instructions in a book from 1910, I made a right pigs ear of it. Now I have my MDF shelf I can transfer my height drawing to I and do a width drawing also.
I’m sure if I did this more than a couple of times I probably wouldn’t need MDF or the “rod” and a stick would be fine.
I also made up a couple of “Pinch Rods” (Sticks??!!?) to get a proper internal measurement for the window space.
I’m sure if I did this more than a couple of times I probably wouldn’t need MDF or the “rod” and a stick would be fine.
I also made up a couple of “Pinch Rods” (Sticks??!!?) to get a proper internal measurement for the window space.
The Cassell’s carpentry book is American, from 1907 and had a huge chapter on Joiners Rods, and they are the way Jacob describes.
Who knows about all this stuff, much of the old literature I’ve read recently calls Rebates or Rabbets…. “Rabates”!! We can have an argument about that now.
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
Try another book? Or several. Ellis is good.
Stick with the mdf - it's reusable indefinitely
Tape measure is easier. You might have to think about it and compromise if it's not perfectly square.
Pinch rods are just something which crops up in amateur woodwork mags. Might have been useful in earlier days - good tape measures are relatively recent.
Last edited:
johnnyb
Established Member
I've made a few Yorkshire sashes and they are delightful and work a treat with oak sliders.
johnnyb
Established Member
I think the hardest bit is visualising the shapes of the moulds and rebates scribes and mortices and tenons. and the precise nature of an item intended for long useful service. sash pocket chisels aside!
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
Rod is two dimensional and one of many pattern or layout systems widely used in many crafts and industries, from early days.
Story stick/rod is one dimensional and is a collection of measurements, the name derived from "storey" with or without the "e" referring to a floor/floor height and hence commonly used for stair risings layouts. As @Adam W. explained before he went off in a huff - nothing to do with Jackanory or Watch with Mother!
They get confused but they do overlap!
Hard work though innit!
Last edited:
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
Looks good!
Next draw in the sash/opening light etc vertical details.
Two essential marks missing - the top and bottom of the opening for the window. Every other mark is then related to them. If they are right everything will be right, and vice versa. I usually flag those two marks with a hatched line or whatever, as they are critical.
I usually draw the whole rod against the edge of the board, not in the middle, having marked up the lines by sliding a combi square along.
What you do next is to project all the lines you need to mark, on your stiles, across the rod with a square.
Then you lay on a stack of stiles or frame members as per my photo somewhere above, face/edge marks opposing to make sure you have handed pairs, then transfer the marks to the stack with a set square.
It means they are all exactly the same and also all exactly fit the drawing on the rod.
Then same again with a horizontal rod, stating by putting in the width of the opening and fitting the drawing to them. Then mark up all your rails and the cills, in stacks the same.
You don't need to put in dimensions except as a reference, as all your marks will be taken from the rod itself with no measuring required.
Last edited:
johnnyb
Established Member
which bit is that. it looks like a cross between a casement and a sash. are you making sashes or a sash box?
I thought I’d draw up and build the frame before moving onto the sashes, then I’ll add the sashes to the rod (when my different colour pens come from eBay!).
Now done a width rod as well on the other side of the board.
Ok, they are there on the edge of the board. That’s where I started actually, from the pinch rod.
Thats what I did actually, but offset by 2 inches.
Yes, dimensions are a reference and were used for drawing the rod, setting out of the stock to be done from the rod.
Next step actually is to go back to my stock and make sure it’s flat/square etc as the dimensions have changed. I also need to glue some bits together for the sill, as 5”x3” lumps of wood aren’t cheap for a prototype project.
Casement. Just a prototype, trying to learn the process.
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
Clearance gaps? You've got to able to fit the thing in the hole.
johnnyb
Established Member
OK for some reason I thought they were double hung sliders. coleys1 has a sticky addressing this style( he's not posted here for a time.)
