Sash bar dimensions for historical windows

[johnnyb]

he was harsh on the lovely tommy as well!

 

[Jacob]

he was harsh on the lovely tommy as well!

Can't remember that - maybe I just do it without thinking?

 

[johnnyb]

it was a long time ago last I saw it tbh. I recall I wanted to contact you to see if I could you become your apprentice...seriously. I was crackers back then as well!

 

[Jacob]

My bold.

I think you are being unduly harsh on the man. He may be doing it that way because he's making a video and being directed by a photographer.

He should have presented himself as the amateur he is - no shame in that!
The most amateurish thing he did (amongst others) was to mark up individual bits of glazing bars from the part erected frame itself. Very time consuming and error prone.
It's a problem for modern woodworkers - some extremely efficient trad methods seem to have been forgotten - marking up from a rod (not a "story stick") is a big one but biggest of all is sharpening, which has been more or less reinvented!
The existence of special tools can be misleading too, most of the work being done with a few ordinary bench tools. That interesting page posted by @toolsntat shows a huge range of shapes and sizes, not because anybody needed that range , but more because it was possible to knock them out and sell a few more, in an era when British Industry and venture capitalism was at its most rapidly expansive. You still see it today with people buying sets of this that and the other, rather than just the one or two they need.

 

[Jacob]

could you tell us any stories about that episode Mr b? what was tommy like? it was in a peak cottage but not the episode about sash windows.

Not much to say - he was a big cheerful good natured bloke just like his TV personality. Also very practical, obviously, and quick to pick up ideas.
It was all done the Peak District; Bonsall in fact.

 

[Adam W.]

Perhaps it's a good time for you to produce a set of videos or write a detailed thread with illustrations teaching us all how to do it the right way.

 

[johnnyb]

we're you working on the property anyway? or was it prearranged?
I would buy that video. In the knowledge that the information was correct(not necessarily all encompassing) and hard won by practice. much of which is missing from "so called" experts films. just because Peter sellars uses a drawknife it don't make him a master.

 

[Jacob]

Perhaps it's a good time for you to produce a set of videos or write a detailed thread with illustrations teaching us all how to do it the right way.

Not for me.
It's not about right/wrong/correct etc its just the trad and efficient way taught by C&G, syllabus derived from the trade, training for people joining the trade.
I guess hand tool woodwork won't be on the curriculum now.
C&G did a whole range of top quality courses for different trades. It started a long way back to retrain returning soldiers after the wars, not sure which ones, 19 century I think.
https://cityandguildsfoundation.org/about-us/#heritage

 

[Adam W.]

I see, I'm disappointed that you have turned down the opportunity of presenting your extensive knowledge, because I was looking forward to the learning experience.

 

[Jacob]

I see, I'm disappointed that you have turned down the opportunity of presenting your extensive knowledge, because I was looking forward to the learning experience.

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm here?
Drop by if you are up this way - happy to show you the process. I've got bits of old rods lying about still. Sometimes keep them - on MFC they are easy to erase and use the board again

 

[johnnyb]

what fascinates me is how quickly seemingly arcane knowledge can disappear. use of lime is one such field. sourdough bread baking is another. it takes a certain personality to chase this knowledge way before anyone is bothered. Jacob was doing this with sash windows 25 years ago. he's practical but purist only in his stated views which don't seem to have changed since he posted his old website. he made windows using machinery in what I call the "classic machine method" why am I saying all this? because he is an expert on a certain way of making sash windows. now of course retired. rib him laugh at him deride his views but don't doubt he can make a lovely sash and case. even if he can be a tiny teeny bit argumentative.
Richard Arnold is an expert at hand making and the associated paraphernalia.

 

[Adam W.]

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm here?
Drop by if you are up this way - happy to show you the process. I've got bits of old rods lying about still. Sometimes keep them - on MFC they are easy to erase and use the board again

Mildly, but I do like learning from people and I thought that you would be willing to share your knowledge with those who are willing to learn.

 

[Jacob]

.... I thought that you would be willing to share your knowledge with those who are willing to learn.

Happy too. I thought I was doing anyway?
I'll see if I can find some photos.
The last windows I did were some massive 14ft chapel jobs, ten of them, several hundred components
The originals (1847) had obviously been made from a rod in that the sizes were identical throughout (as far as I checked) and all similar pieces would be interchangeable, with identical glass sizes etc.
One detail was that they had been knife marked, but only on one side of each stile or rail, the rest of the mark carried round in pencil. My theory is that the knife marks would have been taken from the rod by the foreman to make sure they were correct, and indelible, then passed on to the bench hand to do the pencil marks and the work itself. Just a guess.

 

[Jacob]

The basic procedure.
Whether it's one sash or a whole set you do them in one batch, which may mean a lot of components, hundreds even, so your cutting list has to be efficient. Handy to have it on a black/white board on the wall so you can see it from wherever you are, and cross reference with whatever pieces of wood are in front of you as the job goes on.

1 Do design drawings for the thing, based on dimensions taken from window openings, room size, whatever it is
2 Draw up a rod i.e. the final working drawing, transferred to a board, usually just cross sections, though an arch etc might need a rod of the elevation on a sheet of ply
Edit. The very first things you mark on the rods are the heights and widths of the opening the thing is going in to. You then work everything from those marks, so they have to be right
3 Work out a cutting list from the rod.
4 Order glass cut, to sizes from the rod, or large sheets to cut it yourself, which I usually do.
5 Cut up sawn stock, according to the cutting list, working from largest sizes/sections/lengths downwards - cut from the smallest pieces of stock available. This is basic stock control and is least wasteful. If you do short pieces too soon you may find you haven't enough long pieces left when you get around to them
All glazing bars treated as through, to be separated later as necessary. You could do all sash boxes as one batch and sashes themselves as another, as long as you are working them from the same rod, but it's handy to get all the planing to size done for everything, in one long session
6 Plane up the sawn components individually, marking all with face and edge marks.
n.b You don’t plane “stock” first, you cut it to size first, with due allowances for planing, and then plane.
7 Start the marking up procedure by stacking components on the rod with edge marks opposite so that you get left/right pieces. Mark one side. This is just a routine even if they aren’t handed - just in case. Stack just a convenient height for marking with a set square. Tick them off the cutting list as you go.
8 Carry marks all round with a pencil.
Mark along the lengths with marking gauges and mortice gauge.
Mark for everything. On a door you can mark up for hinges and hardware. On a sash you can mark for pulleys and pockets etc. You have to decide where these things are going so you might as well mark them on the rod too, rather than thinking of them later.
9 Cut all mortices with bevels for wedges, and tenon cheeks and haunches only - not shoulders yet. Everything is still in the square at this point so rebates and mouldings easy to run. It's handy to work to the lines you've marked up as soon as possible, as they are going to be lost as the work progresses
10 Cut all rebates and mouldings

Going out now - more later!

 

[johnnyb]

managed to get some snaps of the shopfront in Leek( I'm camping in hulme end)

 

[steve355]

It's a problem for modern woodworkers - some extremely efficient trad methods seem to have been forgotten - marking up from a rod (not a "story stick") is a big one but biggest of all is sharpening, which has been more or less reinvented!
The existence of special tools can be misleading too, most of the work being done with a few ordinary bench tools.

I am trying to work out what these trad methods are because I think there’s value in them, historically and culturally, and I think they produce a more refined and more beautiful result. There’s a whole world of incredible joinery & craftsmanship under people’s noses in old houses and buildings that people take for granted and don’t even really notice.

To cut a long story short, about 3 years ago I had the plastic windows in my Victorian house replaced, and had a local joiner do them in wood because I wanted to restore the house to its former glory, as much as possible . He did a nice job, but they weren’t as authentic as I imagined. There was one bay I couldn’t afford to get done, and I thought “how hard can it be?” (Pretty hard I’ve found) And decided I’d get the tools and skills to do it myself in a traditional manner.... so headed down a huge rabbit hole of moulding planes and making moulding planes etc because I found it all so fascinating, and mostly a lost art.

So I’m part way through my first practice, throwaway casement now. I’ve been using the “Making Doors and Windows” book from around 1910, plus also Cassell’s Carpentry and Joinery and it’s virtually impossible to follow but no doubt authentic. I’ve already messed up the sill. But that’s OK - I’m doing it to learn.

Hopefully you and others won’t mind critiquing it shortly and giving me some pointers on how to get it right. The window I eventually want to build is a square bay multi-casement, I want to know what I’m doing before I start on that or I’ll waste a lot of wood!

 

[Adam W.]

Ellis, Modern Practical Joinery is good for drawings of bay windows. sashes and other components.

 

[Adam W.]

The basic procedure.
Whether it's one sash or a whole set you do them in one batch, which may mean a lot of components, hundreds even, so your cutting list has to be efficient. Handy to have it on a black/white board on the wall so you can see it from wherever you are, and cross reference with whatever pieces of wood are in front of you as the job goes on.

1 Do design drawings for the thing, based on dimensions taken from window openings, room size, whatever it is
2 Draw up a rod i.e. the final working drawing, transferred to a board, usually just cross sections, though an arch etc might need a rod of the elevation on a sheet of ply
Edit. The very first things you mark on the rods are the heights and widths of the opening the thing is going in to. You then work everything from those marks, so they have to be right
3 Work out a cutting list from the rod.
4 Order glass cut, to sizes from the rod, or large sheets to cut it yourself, which I usually do.
5 Cut up sawn stock, according to the cutting list, working from largest sizes/sections/lengths downwards - cut from the smallest pieces of stock available. This is basic stock control and is least wasteful. If you do short pieces too soon you may find you haven't enough long pieces left when you get around to them
All glazing bars treated as through, to be separated later as necessary. You could do all sash boxes as one batch and sashes themselves as another, as long as you are working them from the same rod, but it's handy to get all the planing to size done for everything, in one long session
6 Plane up the sawn components individually, marking all with face and edge marks.
n.b You don’t plane “stock” first, you cut it to size first, with due allowances for planing, and then plane.
7 Start the marking up procedure by stacking components on the rod with edge marks opposite so that you get left/right pieces. Mark one side. This is just a routine even if they aren’t handed - just in case. Stack just a convenient height for marking with a set square. Tick them off the cutting list as you go.
8 Carry marks all round with a pencil.
Mark along the lengths with marking gauges and mortice gauge.
Mark for everything. On a door you can mark up for hinges and hardware. On a sash you can mark for pulleys and pockets etc. You have to decide where these things are going so you might as well mark them on the rod too, rather than thinking of them later.
9 Cut all mortices with bevels for wedges, and tenon cheeks and haunches only - not shoulders yet. Everything is still in the square at this point so rebates and mouldings easy to run. It's handy to work to the lines you've marked up as soon as possible, as they are going to be lost as the work progresses
10 Cut all rebates and mouldings

Going out now - more later!

That's sorely lacking in detail and is just a basic outline of the procedure for constructing a window, which any amateur would know anyway.

You mention marking on the rod but you don't say what exactly goes on the rod and how it is marked and if it is annotated. A photo of a fully marked up rod would go a very long way to explain what you mean and your description doesn't add anything to the information that can be gleaned from watching the video I posted.

I would have expected more clarity and greater detail from an expert who is happy to criticise the work of others.

 

[Jacob]

I am trying to work out what these trad methods are because I think there’s value in them, historically and culturally, and I think they produce a more refined and more beautiful result.

It's not the methods - the design and details first. Methods are secondary. Best source of design and details is the old joinery you are hoping to replace.

 

[Jacob]

...

I would have expected more clarity and greater detail from an expert who is happy to criticise the work of others.

Well you'll just have to wait! It's quite a job getting the information together and I've got other stuff to do.

A "fully marked up rod" would be simply fully detailed full size cross sectional drawings, or elevation drawing if needed, but in practice you tend to just stick in the marks you need. OK while you are on the job but years later and the thing might be totally unrecognisable.
I've got photos here and there I'll see what I can dig out.