Router table

[Trevanion]

Problem is, I’ve never used a spindle moulder nor seen one used. Would anyone mind having a peek at the SM-4S and telling me if tenoning is realistic with it? Would I need to buy anything else to go with it?

Provided you're not doing massive tenons I don't see any reason why that machine wouldn't be perfectly acceptable for the job.

This video is probably the best introduction to spindle moulding anywhere:
[youtube]4n6yTHMBX54[/youtube]

 

[guineafowl21]

Well, where’s that machine been all my life?

 

[guineafowl21]

Trevanion has thrown me a bit with the spindle moulder idea. I’m looking at the Lumberjack SM-4S - over budget but if it can do tenoning I might well be convinced. I’m also trying to keep those screaming brush motors out of my shop. Noisy and short-lived.

Problem is, I’ve never used a spindle moulder nor seen one used. Would anyone mind having a peek at the SM-4S and telling me if tenoning is realistic with it? Would I need to buy anything else to go with it?

Spindle moulder cutting blocks are pricey, something to bare in mind.

https://www.wealdentool.com/acatalog/Sp ... ng_91.html

Yes, I see that. Hopefully one decent cutter block will serve most of my needs, and I can trawl around online for secondhand ones as and when.

 

[Lazurus]

I would really like one of these
https://www.poolewood.co.uk/product/cha ... lder-w030/
Also takes 1/2 router bits so lots off tooling may well be covered by already owned bits.

 

[Trevanion]

Yes, I see that. Hopefully one decent cutter block will serve most of my needs, and I can trawl around online for secondhand ones as and when.

You can't go wrong with a Whitehill Combi block for a first cutter block: https://www.whitehill-tools.com/cutter-heads/combi-heads/070S00080/

A little pricey initially, but this will do the job of both a Rebate block and a Euro block in one, you can then buy some euro knives in whatever profile you want from either Whitehill or CMT who are cheaper than WH for knives.

 

[guineafowl21]

Do the old 1 1/4” cutters fit the 30mm shaft?

Also, I see a lot of cutters for sale, but no spacers. Would these come with a new machine?

 

[Doug71]

You can use reducers to make 1 1/4" bore blocks fit 30 mm shafts.

https://www.applebywoodturnings.co.uk/o ... -bore.html

 

[Trevanion]

Do the old 1 1/4” cutters fit the 30mm shaft?

Also, I see a lot of cutters for sale, but no spacers. Would these come with a new machine?

Yes, 1 1/4" cutters do fit a 30mm spindle but you need either top hats or reducer sleeves to make the block fit the shaft correctly. You can use just top hats on relatively short height blocks but it's good practice to shove a reducer sleeve in the bore if you can.

Spacers should come with the machine. Funnily enough, for something that you'd think is very simple to make, new spindle spacers are seriously expensive to buy. If you ever need new ones and you're not too fussy about the size you can buy "shaft collars" with a grub screw in them for far cheaper, the only thing is they come in one size.

 

[Alder]

Lonsdale73 posting three days ago leads to a guy making his own router table. What stuck out for me was that he used an insert from a triton moulder as against a conventional router insert plate. My query is why do most instruction want the whole of the centre removed. Why is it not possible to leave more of the middle in place to give additional support and limit any sagging.
Would Leaving enough room for the base of the router base and the location points should be enough?
Russell

 

[guineafowl21]

Maybe a bit of a curveball... Have you considered a spindle moulder?

Curse you! I was all set up to buy a simple router table...

I’ve gone and bought the Charnwood W030P2 package, justifying it as a router table, spindle moulder, tenoner, etc.

I didn’t take much persuading, being slightly unimpressed with the router table offerings. Either a make-your-own expensive kit, with no lift, or a crappy benchtop unit, or a hideously overpriced table with no router or lift.

It comes with euro and rebate cutters. I’d quite like to make cabinet doors, like the old boy in the video, with a rail/stile cutter. Also raised panels. Would I need an additional special cutter for this, or could I get shaped knives for the euro cutter?

Recommendations for a suitable book would also be appreciated - this looks like a versatile machine that requires study to get full use.

Many thanks again for everyone’s input.

 

[Trevanion]

Curse you! I was all set up to buy a simple router table...

Glad I could help :lol:

I’ve gone and bought the Charnwood W030P2 package, justifying it as a router table, spindle moulder, tenoner, etc.

I didn’t take much persuading, being slightly unimpressed with the router table offerings. Either a make-your-own expensive kit, with no lift, or a crappy benchtop unit, or a hideously overpriced table with no router or lift.

That looks like a pretty comprehensive deal with everything included, interesting design too that you turn the fence around to work on the backside with more table depth and without the sliding table in the way. The router spindle should also come in handy but I doubt you'll get excellent results with bits smaller than 3" or so in diameter because the top speed of the machine is only 8000RPM. It should serve it's purpose well and will definitely be much better than most router tables, there isn't much if anything you can do with a router table that you couldn't do better and quicker with a spindle moulder.

It comes with euro and rebate cutters. I’d quite like to make cabinet doors, like the old boy in the video, with a rail/stile cutter. Also raised panels. Would I need an additional special cutter for this, or could I get shaped knives for the euro cutter?

As far as what you'll need, for the doors themselves, you can pick up knives to fit in your Euro block for doing both the profile and scribe from various suppliers like Whitehill, CMT or Wealden, links below.

https://www.whitehill-tools.com/profile-cutters/kitchen-door-profiles/
https://www.scosarg.com/tooling/spindle-moulder-cutters/euro-cutters-40mm?p=3
https://www.wealdentool.com/acatalog/Knives_40_x_4_96.html

When buying knives you'll also need to buy the corresponding limiters, you can run the block without the limiters and with blanks in their place but this means they can, in theory, take a full-depth cut in a single rotation which will cause severe kickback. It also means if your hand comes into contact with the spinning blades it will pull your whole hand into the cutter in a split second because it will want to take massive bites rather than the ~1mm per rotation limitation which will allow you to withdraw your hand if you come into contact, it all happens in a fraction of a second.

Recommendations for a suitable book would also be appreciated - this looks like a versatile machine that requires study to get full use.

You're very correct that about requiring study to get full use out of the machine, I ignored the theory side of things largely when I started out in my career but when I started reading some old books on the machines it massively expanded my understanding and appreciation of how everything works plus they can give some very useful information you just won't find anywhere else. I think it's amazing how much information has been lost over the years as it seems the machinists from before the 70s would be far superior compared with most now even with modern equipment. I can recommend Eric Stephenson's "Spindle Moulder Handbook" as a modern textbook on the subject that's pretty up to date with modern safety standards whilst also giving very good information on the actual use of the machine. Another one worth picking up despite being more of a general machining book is Nigel Voisey's "Wood Machining, a Complete Guide to Effective and Safe Working Practices". You can pick up both books fairly inexpensively second-hand from various places. There are some older books which I think are excellent for reference but the information is very outdated and not really suitable for beginners to the machine because of some seriously questionable practices.

If you ever feel unsure about something, please ask here. They're an excellent machine but they're to be respected and not be trifled with, just like any other machine really.

 

[guineafowl21]

Thanks. I’ve ordered the Stephenson book.

The 40mm cutter comes with some simple cutters (001-006) so I’m trying to order some more useful ones. It’s hard to know exactly what will do what, and which knives go together. Hopefully it’ll become easier with experience and familiarity.

For now, I have a few queries in the form: “I want to do this; which knife do I need?”

1. Rail and stile, say in 25mm thick wood. Will the Scosarg 124 work? I can use thinner wood if need be.

2. Tongue and groove, up to 25mm thick: I can’t find a double knife for doing both. Scosarg 16 and 17?

3. Panel raising: The Scosarg 100 seems like the only one for a 40mm cutter. Will this work with, say, 10mm thick panels, and fit the 124 knife profile?

4. Comb joint, like the video. Not essential at all, but is there a way to join eg 50x50 pieces like this without breaking the bank (it’s already broken)?

5. Tenoning. Would I use the rebate cutter with the workpiece vertical?

 

[Trevanion]

1. Rail and stile, say in 25mm thick wood. Will the Scosarg 124 work? I can use thinner wood if need be.

I can't see any reason why it wouldn't, from roughly guessing the measurement it looks like it would work fine with timber between 20-25mm.

2. Tongue and groove, up to 25mm thick: I can’t find a double knife for doing both. Scosarg 16 and 17?

Yes, those two will work. A double use knife is OK but they're more fiddly to set up, with the separate knives I believe you only need to swap them out and you won't need to change the height or depth of cut at all so it ends up being quicker than re-setting the whole machine.

3. Panel raising: The Scosarg 100 seems like the only one for a 40mm cutter. Will this work with, say, 10mm thick panels, and fit the 124 knife profile?

50mm knives also fit in a 40mm block, so that'll expand your options a bit. Profiles 568, 577, 579 and 580 may interest you. You won't get a particularly deep mould with a euro block compared to a dedicated panel raiser block but it'll pretty much be on par with a router bit.

https://www.scosarg.com/tooling/spindle-moulder-cutters/euro-cutters-50-mm?p=2

4. Comb joint, like the video. Not essential at all, but is there a way to join eg 50x50 pieces like this without breaking the bank (it’s already broken)?

I think you mean something like the box joint (corner lock) he made towards the end of the video, right? I haven't seen any new sets of box jointing cutters for sale anywhere but I haven't really been looking for them, I know they're expensive to buy secondhand and they require quite a bit of power to run effectively which the 2HP motor may not be up to.

5. Tenoning. Would I use the rebate cutter with the workpiece vertical?

In an ideal world, you'd want to do with the workpiece face down on the sliding carriage with a backing board just like at the end of the video I linked to. Making workholding jigs to be able to tenon upright gets a little tricky.

 

[guineafowl21]

Great. I’ve ordered the 124 for rail/stile, the 94/95 for T&G, and the 50mm 579 for panels. Also corresponding limitors.

I’ll let you know how I get on when all the exciting stuff arrives.

Cheers

 

[guineafowl21]

One more thing - I like the idea of either a template follower bearing under the cutter, or a ring fence for the same job. Then I could presumably copy curved plywood templates. Are either still available for the Charnwood machine?

 

[Trevanion]

One more thing - I like the idea of either a template follower bearing under the cutter, or a ring fence for the same job. Then I could presumably copy curved plywood templates. Are either still available for the Charnwood machine?

I'd recommend you get very familiar with the machine first before thinking too much about performing curved work, but yes, you will be able to use the machine to pattern shaping workpieces to a shaped template pretty effectively with either bearing followers or a ring fence. Stephenson's book has a good chapter on the subject.

Bearing followers are great for pattern shaping as there's almost no set-up involved compared to setting up a ring fence for flush cutting, you literally just put in the correct bearing to suit the cutter block you're using and adequately guard the operation, ideally with the ring fence bonnet guard without the fence installed. You need to use a lead-on piece or pin attached to the table to help support the work and ease into the start of the cut otherwise you'll have a nasty fright if it catches and throws the workpiece back, ring fences usually have these lead-on pieces attached to them.

On Charnwood's website, they do sell a ring fence to fit their larger W050 spindle moulder. I don't believe the spindle moulder you bought comes with a ring fence looking at their package deal, perhaps it's worth giving them a call to confirm whether it does and if it doesn't whether the one they sell would fit. That ring fence is honestly the cheapest one I've seen, if you buy a new good quality one from Scott and Sargeant it'll set you back £300 and it probably won't fit without having to drill out the table for new holes, even if you bought an old secondhand one to fit an old Wadkin or similar you'd be forking out well over £100.

 

[guineafowl21]

Perhaps I’ll leave the template work for later as you suggest. Axminster do a collar that you fit a separate bearing into. I guess the collar needs to be sized so it’s flush with the edge of the cutters.
https://www.axminstertools.com/omas-bea ... s-ax824640

 

[guineafowl21]

This arrived yesterday evening! Three days to arrive up here is very good going, so well done to Poolewood. In contrast, the Scosarg knives haven’t arrived yet.

I’ve fitted a false fence, then a sacrificial fence over the top, split down the middle to allow offsetting.

For tenoning, I see that unless you have a tenoning cutter, with recessed bolt, you are limited by the spindle as to tenon length. I also don’t mind cutting the shoulders by hand, as these are visible and don’t take long to do. With this in mind, I thought the best tenoning set-up for me would be two simple saw blades, separated by enough spacers (the machine came with lots) to leave an exact width. Is this feasible? Seems a lot less problematic (breakout, etc.) than trying to swipe the whole cheek off sideways.

 

[Trevanion]

This arrived yesterday evening! Three days to arrive up here is very good going, so well done to Poolewood. In contrast, the Scosarg knives haven’t arrived yet.

That's pretty good service considering the current circumstances, Scott and Sargeant are usually good but I've found orders can be delayed if they haven't got certain items in stock but they do tend to send everything else.

I’ve fitted a false fence, then a sacrificial fence over the top, split down the middle to allow offsetting.

I find I rarely use a sacrificial fence, only ever on short workpieces or ones that are small in section where there's a chance they'll get pulled into the cutter by the wood itself bending. It is still good practice to use them though as they guard the cutter block very well and in some cases result in a better cut surface than without. When breaking through the fence it's a good idea to go a little bit further than where you intend to have the final cut be and ideally plunge through a little higher, lower or both so that there's a bit of space around the cutters themselves so they don't rub the fence too much which will wear the knives out quicker.

For tenoning, I see that unless you have a tenoning cutter, with recessed bolt, you are limited by the spindle as to tenon length. I also don’t mind cutting the shoulders by hand, as these are visible and don’t take long to do. With this in mind, I thought the best tenoning set-up for me would be two simple saw blades, separated by enough spacers (the machine came with lots) to leave an exact width. Is this feasible? Seems a lot less problematic (breakout, etc.) than trying to swipe the whole cheek off sideways.

Even with a recessed block, I personally wouldn't attempt to do tenons off the top of a tall spindle shaft just because there's a lot of force exerted which won't be good for the bearings and in worst-case scenario it may cause damage to the shaft one way or another. Since the shaft is removable on the Charnwood I'd be very tempted to get a "stub" shaft made so that a recessed block could sit at the very base of the shaft and still have clearance for tenoning over the top.

How deep are the tenons you plan on producing? You can certainly use a pair of blades as you describe without too much issue using blades such as the CMT 240 groovers which are meant to be used in a spindle moulder, the only real problem you may come across is the wood closing up and clamping down on the blades a bit because you're deep cutting on the end grain. You'd be surprised how clean and tearout free the shoulders will be if you use a rebate block with a spelch/sacrificial board fixed to the tenoning carriage fence though.

 

[guineafowl21]

Once again, thanks for taking the time to give this advice.

I see the Scosarg invoice says ‘dispatch from 7th May’, so either virus delays or they make up the knives to order.

For general furniture and agricultural stuff (chicken runs etc) I can’t see myself needing tenons longer than 75mm. Usually well under, as I tend to do blind mortices now. When I did mortices by hand, I used to go right through as it’s easier. My (excellent) old Multico model K morticer put paid to that.

I have a few more questions, not covered in the book, manual or by the video (which I’ve watched three times):

1. A while back you said something about an ‘interesting design that you turn the fence around to work on the backside with more table depth and without the sliding table in the way’. What did you mean by this?

2. For end-profiling, or tenoning, should I attach a spelch block where the black plastic piece is on the sliding table fence, or just have a piece of scrap behind the full length of the wood?

3. What is that black plastic piece for? It looks like support for overcutting on the end.

4. To set up for tenoning with two circular saw blades (or a rebate block), would I slide an upright square up to the blades, and mark that on the table as the cheek depth, then run that line down the table and clamp a stop-block there for repeated cuts? There is a rear flip stop fitted, but only for shorter pieces.