random thoughts about dust handling

[engineer one]

as the holiday weekend comes up, more of us will be creating dust and
mayhem, so i had a few thoughts about making life safer for us all.

i find that i am becoming more and more concerned about the effect
some wood dusts have on my throat, but after some sessions, i am
coughing more than i would like.

so i have started to enclose the underneath of the blade on my table saw,
but of course to make the stand for it to go on, i have to use the table
saw, bloody murphy's law. anyway i have made a wooden thingie to go at the back of the the blade. but so far am trying to figure out how to
enclose the front yet still allow the motor to tilt the blade through 45 degrees. am thinking some kind of flexible item with dust brushes
from a patio door along the slot. i have isolated the motor behind a board
much like the original but i hope more effectively. :?

however you discover doing this job that you make more dust doing
other things like drilling holes for bolts, planing rough edges, sanding etc.

so whilst our discussions on extraction and cyclones is wonderful, i think
we are not taking enough care and thought over everyday dust production.

my recent experience suggests that i need to consider one of the air boxes
just to take the dust out of the air after work. whilst working i use a mask,
in my case the smaller trend darth vader type, not an airshield. but not after i have finished which of course is when the dust starts to settle.

and then of course is the problem that many of the tools we already have
do not have proper extraction built in, or for instance on most routers, it reduces the amount of plunge capability. and tables seem to be designed to collect the dust in places you would not think it possible.

my bosch random orbit 150 i find works quite well for extraction, but
because of the shape of the extractor on the makita palm sander, i tend
not to have tried to see how efficient that is. nothing on the cordless
drill, some on the biscuit jointer. and although the extraction underneath the dowels on the mafell is good, still a bunch of dust in the holes, which you have to blow out. :?

finally there is the problem of emptying the dust bags. since like most
of us i am a bit of a cheapskate about hoover bags so i get the dust into
the body of my trend extractor,but tipping it out makes almost as much dust as the original work, and of course the black bin bags do not
properly fit over the top, and stuff gets caught in the rim of the vacuum.
many of the extractors seem tohave the same problem when removing
the actual dust bag.

so what can we do to make our conditions better. extraction for the machines, whether it is cyclonic like barry burgess's or who know,
is only the start, and what about hand tool dust?

the approach needs to be integrated and some of the accessories have
to have been designed by guys who have actually used the products.
what's the point of collecting the b****y stuff if in trying to get it down to
the dump, we breath in all the dust we have collected.

we all approach this collection/extraction thing from different directions, but are all after the same thing, cleaner safer workshop, so what can we
do to convince manufacturers of the various components to have some sensible standards and interchangeable parts,instead of differences between each machine. then wouldn't it be nice to have the collection
bag that does not need a degree in stupidity to empty easily and
without dumping the dust everywhere. even dyson do not have it completely correct so it is not just our manufacturers.

i know that we have all talked the actual extraction, but any thoughts
about the other points.

paul :wink:

 

[woodbloke]

Paul - I 'spose we all take our different approaches to this one with the aim at the end of the day (hate that expression :evil: ) to reduce the dust level in our 'shops to managable levels, though I feel that we're never going to completely eradicate it, goes with the territory . I've got the usual extractors for saw and planer, one for power tools, disc sander and bandsaw and an ambient air extractor running off a timer. It was the stuff just hanging about though, say when you do a bit of hand sanding, or a bit of machining which was worrying me. Hence the reason for buying the last line of defence, the Airshield (see a previous post for a review) I'm much happier now in the 'shop :lol: (not that I wasn't before) as I know that the small amount that could upset the tubes has been completely blocked. There are down sides (noise, weight on the bonce, etc) but they are more than overcome by the advantages. I also thoroughly clean the 'shop once a week just before the 'bin men come so I know its ready for the next few days of sawdust making - Rob

 

[engineer one]

yeh rob understand why you use the air shield but what do you do
for the floating stuff?

paul :wink:

 

[woodbloke]

Hi Paul - the floaty bits of dust in the air produced by something like hand sanding is what the Aishield picks up, same sort of stuff as an ordinary dust mask, but much better to wear. I only have to look at the filters in the Airshield to see the fine dust that could have ended up in the tubes - a quick hoover with the 'shop vac at the end of a session and its OK for the next day. Two batteries definitely worth getting tho'. Once lights out and the end of the day the ambient air cleaner sucks up most of what is left, runs on a timer from 6-10pm - Rob

 

[Anonymous]

It's an old dodge but... place a mirror in your workshop and check the level of dust on it after a 'clean' session :wink:

 

[Evergreen]

If earning your living involves making dust e.g. working with wood, I believe you should take all reasonable precautions to protect your health. But if woodworking is your hobby, then a different set of considerations comes into play - is the pleasure worth all the precautions that you could take?

My approach has been to:
1 switch back to hand tools (apart from a corded electric drill)
2 work outside on a Workmate whenever possible
3 sand as little as possible
4 wear a P2 mask when I'm doing something dusty
5 clean up after every woodworking session wearing a P2 mask
6 put apron in the washing machine regularly

A simple regime and I know it's a compromise but it's the right balance for me.

Regards.

 

[Anonymous]

3 sand as little as possible
.

Amen to that, use hand planes and get a nicer finish on the wood as it 'glows'

 

[engineer one]

interesting thoughts from all, but i do think everyone is ignoring
is the residual dust that stays in the air after both working and cleaning
up, and often since it is so fine, will probably be the thing that would
eventually kill us. even asbestos boards are safe until you break them,
or drill through them.

so again i just posit that we should spend as much on post usage
dust collection and extraction as that direct from the machines.

evergreen have you tried the mirror trick over night after your clean up.
be interested to see what the results are. :twisted:

what i am trying with the 744 is stopping dust leak from the saw,
and then collect it. so far i have cut down much of the transfer, but
it still gets shunted by the blade below the table and by air movement,
through the front of the saw, so that is the next thing. am trying to design something that will block of the tilt slot without stopping the saw tilting,

at the get go it may well be cardboard since there will be no stress, and then maybe french door brushes anyway lets see how much i can reduce the drop out. :?

paul :wink:

 

[Evergreen]

Paul

I don't doubt that if I put a mirror in my workshop/garage overnight, it would have dust on it in the morning. Lords knows, every other mirror in the house seems to attract dust like a magnet!

But when you walk into a DIY shed, a timber merchants or a builders merchants, what are you breathing? A whole mix of dusts, that's what. (Wickes in particular seems to be a dusty place) And that's just the start of it. I've always lived in a city and that means I've breathed quite a bit of asbestos dust from brake linings in my time. You can't worry about that kind of thing or you'd end up living in a positive pressure suit.

As I understand it, you're taking sophisticated steps to reduce dust in your workshop and you're following it right through to the end stage i.e. disposal. That's excellent and it should give you much cleaner air and with it, peace of mind. My point is that we all have to compromise at some stage because we don't live in a perfectly clean environment.

Regards.

 

[engineer one]

evergreen, interesting comment and of course you are right,
i live in west london so ! :?

what i am saying is that we should take steps to reduce the amount
of dust we ourselves inflict in a relatively tight atmosphere. can't say my
stuff is going to be sophisticated, but i guess i was saying that if you
bother to use extraction, and or make a cyclone, you should consider
all the ways of reducing its entry into your lungs.

like everyone i would like to be perfect, but i ain't, so as i am getting
older, i need to think about reducing the excess dirty air that i ingest.

perfect i ain't

paul :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Sensible attitude Paul... just wish I knew whether it's me pipe or the dust that makes me cough!

reality suggests a bit of both :lol:

 

[devonwoody]

I usually have a clean up after a project by using the garden blower and blowing the dust out of the workshop. (with my Triton respirator on)

However the thought crosses my mind if using a tablesaw/or Workcentre it would be better if the blower could be used to blow dust away from the operator (and out of the workshop) at the same time as ripping.

Perhaps forum members could post ideas and helpful suggestions posted together with constructive criticism.

 

[engineer one]

woody, interesting, you see, to me you commit the biggest sin, and this is
not having a go as such, just the way we have all done it in the past.

you blow the stuff into the garden, but then what? how long do you
keep the mask on after using the blower, i wonder if like us all, at the end
of a period of usage, you are always in a hurry, so do not wait
before removing the mask? also what about the neighbours?

as i say i am not specifically having a go at you for the sake of it,
but like me, you are taking one view about removing the dust from
yourself, but not about the locale, and its effects on others.

as i have said, containment in the first place, and then safer
removal should be something we all work toward.

paul :wink:

 

[Niki]

Hi Paul

Long time ago, when I was flying, we could see over the big cities like, London, Paris and a like, a big black cloud seating on the city (in aviation it's called Smog, that is a combination of smoke and fog), usually at calm whether (wind up to 5km/hr), normally at don. It's a mixture of dust and the smoke emitted by the cars and industry, and I was thinking; that's what we breath.

I'm only an amateur but sometime, like you, I feel something in my throat and I'm trying to eliminate the dust as much as I can.
On the table saw I plugged every hole around the blade and I'm using 2 shop vacs, one for the blade and on for the guard.
I improve the DC on the sanders by adding cardboard from both sides.

But I think that the biggest problem is from the dust that falls to the floor and we step on it, transfer it to other places while walking around and rising up the fine dust. That's the reason that I clean the floor after I finish to cut on the TS and before the next operation, sometimes, even in-between, if I have many cuts.

One day, I visited a guy that repairs the cars body that involves, as you know, a lot of grinding and sanding.
Just before he started to paint, he sprinkled water around the garage, to my widely open eyes he answered: it sticks all the fine dust in the air to the floor.

I did not try it yet but maybe it's a good idea to wet the floor before starting to make dust and at the end of the day, so at the morning the air is clean (respectively).

The question is, what is better; muddy floor and less dust or dry floor and more dust.

I have to try it one day.

Regards
niki

 

[Bean]

Paul
If you have such a problem with dust and its disposal them maybe you should consider not creating any :wink:

 

[Colin C]

Paul
If you have such a problem with dust and its disposal them maybe you should consider not creating any :wink:

But thats no fun

 

[CHJ]

My Turning Shed was fitted with an Axminster ADE1200 (1 micron bag filter) and I use a Positive Air Powered face mask .

The level of residual dust settling in the shed caused me concern and I also found that I needed additional forced cooling during sunny days. (more than 50% glass walls)
After investigating the acquisition of an ambient air filter and weighing up it's effectiveness with windows open I decided to take another approach.

I fitted a 9" Expelair shuttered extractor fan immediately above the Lathe venting into free air. (a second user item rebuilt and serviced by myself)

I relocated the ADE1200 outside the workshop in it's own little barn with venting at ground level and fitted it with a replacement 5 micron filter bag
(part no. ADE1200-64) because such fine filtering was no longer needed.

This has had several positive effects and only two negative ones that effect me that I can see as of now, one of which awaits wintertime to assess.

On the positive side:
1. The chip/dust extraction to the ADE1200 from the Lathe Chuck area is significantly increased.
(Even pencils think the 100mm tube is a theme park ride)
2. The shed is significantly quieter to work in.
3. The airborne dust in the shed is so low one could be fooled into not wearing the mask.
(Working some Padauk and looking at mask filters and high level extractor grill soon educates differently)

On the negative side:
1: My simple Chip interception bin needs redesigning as 20%+ more debris is finding it's way into the AD1200 bag.
2: It is going to be at the cost of more heat input on sunless cold days in winter.
3: Visitors have to be warned not to stand in the area adjacent to the extractor.

Note: NVR switching for ADE1200 now controlled in shed.

The Garage workshop uses a cheap portable chip collector for the limited use given the Bandsaw, Tablesaw and Thicknesser.
Fine dust distributed by the chip collector is managed by wearing the dust mask and judicious use of garage front and back doors to move it elsewhere.

 

[engineer one]

bean, i try not to be hypocritical about my interests.
i believe that woodworkers are by nature re-cyclers,
look at what for instance colin c does with old furniture,
or alf, bugbear and others with old tools.

but we live in a time when the environment for better or ill is
high on the agenda, so why not help things along ourselves.
we all know don't we that certain woods are dangerous,
yew for instance plus some of the african ones in understand,
afromorsia amongst others, so when using them we take
precautions, but then maybe we just dump the sawdust
without any thought for others.

locally, garages use some sawdust to help with oil removal,
it makes an easier product to get rid of.

i am not saying don't enjoy woodworking, just why not
be as thoughtful as the council wants you to be with your
rubbish and food waste. they fine you for putting the wrong
things in the wrong bags or boxes, and it will get worse.

if we work together then we can ensure that we do not get
stopped from enjoying our hobby because we do not handle
the waste product, dust properly. but i also worry about
those round us, kids, swmbo, and my lungs. why not?

of course i could not do it, but as colin said that's no fun,
so i try to contain the damn stuff, and why not :twisted:

paul :wink:

 

[engineer one]

so chris ho w many visitors have you lost through the expelair? :lol: :twisted:

last time i used my one of those it was for my model car
spray booth, but it is a sensible idea.

i am honestly not trying to get holier than thou on this,
just we all tend to think the odd 5 minutes will not need a mask,
and that's when we get our lungs stuffed up.

paul :wink:

 

[CHJ]

As I live in a rural area where normal agricultural tasks such as the making of hay in the field adjacent to my property sends a much higher dust load into the local environment than I can produce, and the nearest neighbors house is 100 mtrs away from the bulk of the dust exhausts only the trapped solids form a problem for me.

IMO the most efficient way of disposing of the waste woodchips/dust is in an efficient clean burning space heater be it home or workshop and my air dumping mods may well force the acquisition of such a pot burner next winter for the shed. As of the moment any of mine not used by the neighbors for starting or damping down their woodburners just warm up the local wildlife when the wind is in the right direction and the residue gets used as a source of potash/charcoal for the compost heap and garden.