Quangsheng No.62 low angle vs No.5 vs No.5 1/2?

UKworkshop.co.uk

Help Support UKworkshop.co.uk:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Oh boy, I'm so glad that it took me ONLY a year or two to find the proper authority, like The English Woodworker. I did fall into the trap of bevel up planes superiority and table saw necessity after watching American woodworkers and reading American magazines. Americans are good at selling anything, . Construction table saw I sold pretty fast after I built workbench for hand tools with it in my apartment. But I still have BUS, LAJ, BUJ (bevel up planes of sizes that of #4, #5 and #7). They are even useful at times, mostly to delay sharpening of double iron planes... Shooting plane I use all the time though, it has the same iron as those other 3, but it is only for the end grain.

There is a huge difference for me, between "this is how I did it first time and it worked out alright for me" and "this is how I learned from my father and this is why previous generations found this approach better than that and this in this particular situation".

Sawing I find more demanding than planing, at least ripping for a few meters is. Band saw was a bliss, got small 10" quite soon. Sawing and planing also led me to conclusion that it is very nice to be ambidextrous. I try to teach the same operation to the right hand and the left hand if I can. And rhythm and breathing and all other yoga or martial arts like things that you can find useful. Not as substitute for proper technique, but it helps of course.

I owe everyone a demonstration of dimensioning as I know it now. I know the average workman 200 years ago could've dusted me, but I doubt that anyone at any woodworking show would be able to do the same block of work that I could sawing and planing in the context of work in 4 hours, and i'm not really in very good shape - like running or sport shape.

My point with this is that I think workmen found like farmers, a position that they could work in expending the least they could on themselves, holding themselves up, and the most on whatever they were doing.

This means relaxed legs and an upright position whenever able and switching when not stamina is needed as switching is generally pretty easy. For example, if shoveling something it's all leaning or rotation and little hard squeezing or arm-like moves. If you have to lean, so be it, but you can shovel left handed or right handed.

Sawing is the same way. Chris Schwarz and other folks demonstrate sawing as a one armed thing with a bunch of arm motion, and then holding up his or their bodies, whoever is demonstrating. This is dumb for anything more than the shortest of cuts. The power for the saw comes from leaning or twisting, originating at the shoulder and being upright wherever possible, sitting at the work, standing astride a bench or on-knee on a saw bench and upright holding the wood down with a knee instead of a hand. As soon as you lean over on a hand, you'll be holding up your body and restricting the ability to create power by twisting.

Whatever position you may be sawing in, figure out a way to generate power with shoulder, twisting, whatever it may be and see if you can do it in a position that's upright enough that you don't have to strain leaning over or holding yourself up.

frequent but fast saw sharpening for rip sawing is necessary - just so that the saw is cutting on its own without bearing down on work but not so aggressive that it's catching or stopping abruptly at the end of the cut. Sounds very prickly and like a narrow window to operate in, but it becomes easy pretty soon.

If you're doing something like resawing moderate sized wood in a vise, it becomes pretty easy then just to use one arm, and then switch sides and use the other. If you like to rip one armed, you can also saw with your off hand without much practice. Fine crosscutting....a little less safe to just go at it, but it'll be uncommon that you wear yourself out crosscutting anything.

the only time I ever have a hand on a piece to be ripped when it's on a saw bench is just to start a cut. After that, it's never necessary to do anything other than get back upright and leave a knee on the wood, or sit on it and saw with both hands from head height. You'll get blisters on your hands before the rest of you tires.

if a saw is aggressive in a certain position, you have the whole handle to work with - the saw will be much milder gripping the bottom of the handle. When I saw sitting, to avoid the saw grabbing, I usually go with one hand through the handle, but backwards resting on the inside of the loop, and the other on the bottom of the handle on the outside. the same saw that saws nicely with one arm will saw nicely like that. And you're sitting on the wood, so there's little effort in keeping it still.

I think to see all of this stuff demonstrated would look boring, and of course, it assumes that you have materially conquered tool setup and maintenance and controlling the tools without having a death grip on them. Everything is small adjustments. The same way, I always imagined myself as a kid outworking my grandfather, who was already in his mid 70s. It looked like he did all of the work with a turn or by using his "butt". he was a farmer and he retired to fall, cut and split and sell firewood 3 days a week. nice retirement. he always looked to me like he was just going through the motions and not trying very hard, but I doubt I was working as fast as him or could've worked nearly as long - I just didn't get what he was doing at the time. He spent a lifetime figuring out how to do as much work as possible.

If you measure what you get done, you'll be surprised to find that you can probably figure out ways to get a volume of work done faster without feeling like you're working as hard, and the opportunity to find something never goes away, which is one of the draws of working by hand.

While I feel like I owe organizing and showing it, regardless of who would like to criticize what (I don't care), I also haven't been in that big of a hurry, because I think, like the magazines present, people are looking for entertainment and just enough of a taste to practice escapism. The share of folks who are going to stick it out behind observation is small. The share of the share left who are going to go beyond observation to really getting after things and having the physical sense of doing things and doing them well to the point that they are natural seeming is probably smaller yet in proportion.

The only shame of it that I can think of in terms of how good it feels to work entirely by hand without it being painful or punishing is that if it were done for gainful purposes in the past, people would've gotten to the point where I am now and then still progressed to "ok, now that I can do this easily, let's see how fast I can do it to torture myself to get just a little more". "and then a little more after that". Before my grandfather was old, that was him.

My comment about nobody outworking me doing this was a nod to him. My dad recounts him hiring a dozen men during hay season and then declaring "there isn't a man alive who can outwork me", treating the men well, but not standing around while they did his work, rather showing them he'd be in the mix with them and none would be able to criticize him for slacking while others took the punishment. I stop at the lazy pleasant part. I think many others would love that part, too. You can get really fast at things just keeping it extra lazy and pleasant. The cap iron needling came out of laziness. The fast sharpening came out of laziness. All of it did.
 
I'm probably wrong, too - the guys at williamsburg might be able to dust me because they're actually working by hand in front of the public all day. I forgot about folks like that.
 
There is a lot of personal preference issues as well as size of projects you plan to undertake
I have all 3 of the sizes you mention. A 5 1/2 is my go to plane, I find the no 5 a bit small.
I would suggest the 5 1/2 would go better with your existing No4
The low angle bevel up is a bit more specialised, but very good on end grain. Unfortunately the sides are not as high as a bevel down plane which can make them a bit less stable when using a shooting board
 
here's something for you guys to try - take something about the size of a drawer side or panel end and put it upright in a vise. plane it with a #4, and compare that to planing it on it side.

Once you do that, mark a certain amount to be removed and remove it planing each way. If you're worked about the back side breaking out with the wood in the vise, you can install a piece to back what you're planing or just (easier) plane the back edge off to the mark first.

You'll find that there aren't very many instances when you do this, or ten of these, that the shooting board works as well as a regular bench plane - no matter what's being used to shoot end grain. You'll probably also find the bevel up plane to be a bit sticky when it's upright on a vise (don't forget the wax).

Most importantly, if you do this for a group of things, notice how much longer it takes the plane being upright to feel like it's not cutting. if the planing seems sticky or hard to start, double check that the sole of the plane doesn't need to be waxed by waxing it.


I tested irons a few years ago (was already long into giving up the shooting board) and do some calculations about how often you sharpen a shooting plane - I found that I was able to plane cherry endgrain with V11, about 1100 feet and something like 900 with a good O1 iron. I think you'll find you get about a tenth or a little more than that with a shaving of a couple of thousandths using a plane on its side.

this is one of the reasons you'll find few or no references to shooting ends in older texts - it was to inefficient, and at the same time, the person doing the sawing probably was able to saw smaller items (drawer sides) right to a mark without needing to shoot anything. Especially if the ends are going to be planed after dovetails are made.

if I told you that I knew the last thing I shot the end on, I'd be lying.

I *do* remember the last time I trimmed miters for mouldings, but they weren't done in a shooting setup, they were done on a miter jack.

I just found an old picture of that test of irons - this is a box full of end grain shavings. They were made by a #4. In order to make sure the test was fair, I measured number of shavings, but also weight. Some types of steel don't seem to do as well as the iron dulls in terms of getting a nice continuous shaving and starting as easily.

 
(not for a lack of tooling, either. I have a better shooting plane than you can buy.



It'll trim a half thou off of cherry, or it'll take off a hundredth or more. But there's not really much occasion to use it, and if there is and the work isn't really small, it's a sign of something that could be done more efficiently elsewhere.

I think the draw to the shooting board is that it's something like a crosscut sled or whatever, but we don't go to power tools trying to figure out how to use them like hand tools ,and the converse often isn't good policy either
 
(I got a lecture from imgur readers about how I needed to be better at sharpening when I posted that picture with the caliper...

"dude, you need to work on your sharpening. You should get a guide and some waterstones and take nice thin shavings". )

I had some crackpot idea at the time that you could set a shooting plane heavy, cut just shy of the line by a seen amount and be within a thousandth or two on something like a drawer side. it's a failing concept compared to accurate crosscut sawing, but it did seem a way at first to get past the fact that shooting planes don't have any downforce and don't last long before needing sharpening
 
@D_W please do put a video together on YouTube for us to demonstrate all your techniques.

Respectfully, it might then mean you can refer to that in threads and write shorter posts rather than infect any thread you join with dozens of long posts which interrupt the flow and discussion of others as well
 
Low angle, High angle, Round the bend angle ....it don't matter as long as the tool is sharp and made from Sheffield steel because it is the best in the world...and with Jacob about Norris adjusters and thick blades.
 
Unfortunately the sides are not as high as a bevel down plane which can make them a bit less stable when using a shooting board
I forget where I read it but it was suggested to deliberately make your shooting board very slightly crowned - higher in the middle - because if by chance there was a slight dip in the centre of the board the plane would be supported at the heel and the higher part of the plane could roll into it causing the cut edge then be out of square.
 
I forget where I read it but it was suggested to deliberately make your shooting board very slightly crowned - higher in the middle - because if by chance there was a slight dip in the centre of the board the plane would be supported at the heel and the higher part of the plane could roll into it causing the cut edge then be out of square.
:unsure: I'll try and remember that if I ever feel the need for a shooting board!
I did make one years ago when I was starting up as they seem to be everybody's favourite accessory, but in the end never seemed to use it.
There's not much you can do with a shooting board which you can't do quite easily without one, and they generate another little set of problems of their own - biggest being the delusion that you need a special very expensive plane.
I very occasionally knock up some sort of simple 5 minute jig for a job but that's as near as I get.
 
Last edited:
@D_W please do put a video together on YouTube for us to demonstrate all your techniques.

Respectfully, it might then mean you can refer to that in threads and write shorter posts rather than infect any thread you join with dozens of long posts which interrupt the flow and discussion of others as well

I looked through your post history and didn't find any evidence that you would be affected by talk or lack thereof regarding handtools.

Please feel free to add me to your ignore list rather than bothering me with pushy nonsense.
 
Last edited:
I looked through your post history and didn't find any evidence that you would be affected by talk or lack thereof regarding handtools.

Please feel free to add me to your ignore list rather than bothering me with pushy nonsense.

It was hardly pushy nonsense - just my experience of being in this forum as someone looking to get into primarily handtool woodworking. My post history doesn't show much because I haven't started yet because I'm still building my workshop which is taking a while for various reasons, however I am now putting on the cladding so I might get done by Christmas.

I was just offering my perspective as someone new and trying to learn and trying to make this forum a better place -- I'm afraid that lots of lengthy posts telling people that LA planes are not the answer combined with jibes of every plane manufacturer & random anecdotes about bayling hay and saw technique creates a very low signal <> noise ratio.

Having read your contributions I can see that you have plenty of expertise with handtools, planes, chisels, making them, discussing the various types of steel etc. etc. etc. but I was just trying to point out that as a beginner, I can't see the wood from the trees with your contributions and a concise presentation of your points in a YT video would be great.
Forums are not lecture theatres and are designed to provide a medium of discussion and garner various opinions. Ignoring people doesn't work because it then makes a thread disjointed when those on your ignore list contribute.

I was just trying to provide a comment to help communicate your expertise and knowledge in a way which is more accessible and helps more people rather than your typical bloviating posts which I feel don't serve many.
 
Use the ignore button. I'm not here to build consensus among casual users or build a business. The ignore button will do everything you want.
 
.... bloviating...
:ROFLMAO: Spot on! though I had to look it up. Not such a well known word here, it's American.
Is bloviating a particularly american habit? Often seems so. :unsure:
Ignore button is a good idea I've been using it for a long time though as you say it sometimes makes things seem disjointed.
 
Last edited:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloviation "....William Gibbs McAdoo, compared it to "an army of pompous phrases moving over the landscape in search of an idea....."

There's something humorous here given the messenger.

What did come out of this thread that wasn't done with enough consideration when I started was honesty about what the various tools really are.

Maybe 50% of the people coming to forums want to just talk like they're at a restaurant, maybe hear what a friend says to buy (but that's different than having much intention), another 45% want to have some kind of self appointed manners and know something isn't that great, but be afraid to say so either out of fear that someone will say they don't know anything, or out of a sense of manners that was originally cultivated thinking that always pumping up self ego about having great manners is helpful to other people.

It's not helpful in a situation where people are looking for legitimate advice, and the pool of folks who go beyond trimming joints and buying expensive fretsaws to feed wood through a planer is pretty small.

i'd point everyone to nicholson, but then when I do that, I have some guys who spent their working lifetime feeding shapers and painting windowsills discounting what's in it when it's really one of the few accurate accountings of what it's like to work wood by hand.

For folks like "bucksdad", if it really is a matter of wanting economy of communication - find the nicholson text that
* talks about the tools
* talks about how to set them up and use them

And figure out what they're saying in their compact discussion - make it a burden to do that, not to seek advice from people who are more concerned with being nice to an advertiser and censoring their own speech or believing somehow that a huge group of buy-and-lose-interest amateurs somehow will cultivate a bunch of manufacturers who cater to serious woodworkers. They're not the market. Guys like sellers and cosman and others if you really want to use hand tools, they're all dead ends unless you want to feed wood through power tools and cut joints here and there and sand after using hand tools.

15 years ago, it would've been hard to get several people who bought a type of plane to say they didn't like it that much and it was limiting. Several here did, and that is a good conclusion. We did already have people who pushed stuff through shapers for 30 years, never bought or used any of the stuff they said wasn't any good, but claimed to work a lot with hand tools, though. That's not new.

The one thing useful for anyone giving things a go beyond nicholson is the use of a stanley type smoother - they are better than anything wooden for practical finish planing in a range of woods, and they don't really give up anything to be good at a lot of things. And 1900 era saws are better than 1800 era saws. Other than that, there's not much that's better than what was around in 1820 for actually woodworking, and most is worse. But it's not aimed at a market who would know, it's aimed at a market who will buy.
 
No.5 1/2 is a clear favourite here, and endorsed by Rob Cosman (if that means anything). Perhaps it would also compliment the 4 I already own as well.
Thank you everyone. I would like to at least hold one of each and perhaps try out as well before committing, but it’s not easy to organise.
 
5 1/2 is a good choice. Not sure that Cosman's recommendations on hand tools mean much - he'll recommend whatever he's selling and he doesn't break character if you make a reasonable suggestion about what would be more practical working by hand.

That said, 5 1/2 is a good all around plane for bench work and it can be set to do panel work and prep for a smoother, as well as joint all but long stuff.
 
I called in to see my brother and he was clearing out his garage and I saw a very old rusty Stanley no4 and I said do you want i,t he said it was our fathers who was a cabinet maker and was sentimental to him and me.
I took it away to renovate and I use it for everything. My brother doesn’t recognise it. It’s my favourite plan.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top