Quality difference between table saw price bands

[benjamino613]

I am looking to get a solid table saw for my expanding workshop and for many months have eyeing the Itech 01332 as the contender at £1150 give or take. However I am wondering if there is a huge difference in bouncing up to the next ' bracket' in the 2 / 2.5 K range. For example the Laguna Fusion 3.

Would be glad to hear advice on wether or not there is a marked differnce between these price bands and some details, as well as any suggestions as to other potential contenders that would be better. Off the bat I'll say that I am looking to buy a new saw only.

Cheers

 

[Housey210]

2/2.5k, personally for that kind of dosh I would look at a used wadkin sp table saw or bgp. The motors are easily swapped out for single phase. A good quality piece of kit.

 

[deema]

The more expensive the saw in general the more industrial the build the better the saw will cut / last. I don’t have any experience of the Laguna saw, ie I haven’t either used one or more importantly for me taken it apart to see how well it’s been built. I had a good look at one at the Harrogate show, and it appeared to be a nicely engineered machine.
A lot of people have had a lot of success made wonderful things with very inexpensive saws, and again in general have made them work very well often with a lot of tinkering needed.

For the upper budget level I’d personally be looking for something like this
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/22562821...zJ6IpQYBp0Q-spGeHgNH053UAi9WcJ5EaAmDtEALw_wcB
Or indeed, you could buy a fully refurbished / rebuilt Wadkin AGS10 or say a Startrite DS275 both of which are highly capable saws, highly desirable and will hold their value / increase in value.

The heavier, more massive the trunions, bearings, spindle and amount of cast iron there is the less vibration there will be and the better the cut / greater the accuracy. The larger the motor, the less likely it is to bog down, which can cause an accident. That is why the ‘old iron’ machines are highly valued. They are truly multigenerational machines. Sedgwicks to some extent follow in these footsteps, I have written a thread on both a Sedgwick TA315 restoration which will give you insights into how well they are built and the older model the Sedgwick LK, which is a personal favourite. There is also a thread we wrote on a Wadkin BGS restoration which as a saw is almost identical to an AGS with the addition of a small sliding table.

 

[johnnyb]

I'm gonna refer back to the thread where I suggest buying into the American system of table saw centricity is the way forward in a home workshop. with that in mind buy the best quality American style saw you can find.complete with dado capacity. min 1 3/4 max 3 hp. fancy fence. 52 inch rails( got room?). left tilt. etc
American made if possible but must have a tilting riving knife and decent extraction not easy in the uk. not that easy in the US. the laguna is a Taiwanese derivation of the above but looks a great machine.
however a big slider is probably more desirable as your space increases( altendorf scm felder)

 

[Housey210]

40 years in the joinery trade from bench to foreman of two companies, one purpose made joinery the other fireplaces, both were delivering nationwide. I also taught at local college. During those years I have used many a machine from the obscure to well known. Of saw benches with outrig hinged sliding units I have experienced nothing but issues, both in accuracy and solo material handling. The sliding table on a dedicated base, such as bgp and sp, is the only choice for me. Machines and price is all down to market and demand. The college I spoke of no longer have their woodmachines as the demand for learning woodtrades is not there. Their engineering shop is downsizing too so a sign of the times for backbone trades. There will be a glut of these old machines out there, due to not meeting industry regs on guards and stopping times, and most I reckon will end up being weighed in for scrap. Sole trader, woodworker enthusiast with a good size gararge then regs will not apply, my advice check out facebook marketplace far better deals on there than the chancers / dealers on ebay! (the saws i mentioned when tables locked, blades lowered, guard and fence removed one has a solid workstation, I covered mine with ply.)

 

[benjamino613]

Thanks for all the replies, and I had a feeling most would suggest buying an older machine and refurbish, based on perusing older threads. I just don't have the confidence / knowledge to that at the moment although down the line it would be something I would love to do for all the reasons mentioned above. Having said that, it seems like for the time being it would make more sense to go with a fairly decent machine like an ITech 01332 at £1000 approx rather than go for a £2500 new modern saw. Reason being that everyone seems to think that if you were to spend £2500, there would be far better older machines like a sedgewick , wadkin, etc.

My main question was really if there was a difference between a new 1k machine, vs a new 2.5k machine and if the difference was truly worth more than double cost?

 

[benjamino613]

I'm gonna refer back to the thread where I suggest buying into the American system of table saw centricity is the way forward in a home workshop. with that in mind buy the best quality American style saw you can find.complete with dado capacity. min 1 3/4 max 3 hp. fancy fence. 52 inch rails( got room?). left tilt. etc
American made if possible but must have a tilting riving knife and decent extraction not easy in the uk. not that easy in the US. the laguna is a Taiwanese derivation of the above but looks a great machine.
however a big slider is probably more desirable as your space increases( altendorf scm felder)

Ah the altendorf, thats the dream haha but I think its a tiny bit overkill for someone just starting out really... one day though!

 

[recipio]

Very few of us have the room for a big slider saw but a compromise is something like the Axminster AT254LS which can have a slider rail as an add on. Personally I have an old DeWalt 746 with a 5/8 " arbour and I am a devotee of the American system. One thing I find invaluable is the twin slots machined in the bed of American saws which allows the use of zero clearance crosscut sleds. Single slot sleds are not quite as accurate. Unfortunately I don't think these kind of saws are available in the UK anymore. I'm afraid the OP will have to decide on his priorities based on budget and specifications. I'd be reluctant to get into renovating old cast iron machines as a beginner - who needs the hassle ?

 

[benjamino613]

Very few of us have the room for a big slider saw but a compromise is something like the Axminster AT254LS which can have a slider rail as an add on. Personally I have an old DeWalt 746 with a 5/8 " arbour and I am a devotee of the American system. One thing I find invaluable is the twin slots machined in the bed of American saws which allows the use of zero clearance crosscut sleds. Single slot sleds are not quite as accurate. Unfortunately I don't think these kind of saws are available in the UK anymore. I'm afraid the OP will have to decide on his priorities based on budget and specifications. I'd be reluctant to get into renovating old cast iron machines as a beginner - who needs the hassle ?

Many of my thoughts are echoed exactly by your words regarding older machines. I would love to do it as a 'passion project' but not as the only saw I have that I need it to work

the ITech 01332 does have the twin slots you mentioned which allows for great jig versatility. As does the laguna i refferenced. From what Ive seen most newer, decent saws do too, even the jobsite one. cheers

Regarding, axeminster, while I love the company sometimes i feel like the price of their machines are not justified enough, and that they are trading off their brand name. I don't have much to back that up to be fair, but when I compare it to the itech range i have trouble finding the difference that justify sometimes double the cost. Dont shoot! I would actually have room for a massive slider theoretically because my workshop is in a corner of my business warehouse. but an altendorf is too much!

 

[SLM]

Thanks for all the replies, and I had a feeling most would suggest buying an older machine and refurbish, based on perusing older threads. I just don't have the confidence / knowledge to that at the moment although down the line it would be something I would love to do for all the reasons mentioned above. Having said that, it seems like for the time being it would make more sense to go with a fairly decent machine like an ITech 01332 at £1000 approx rather than go for a £2500 new modern saw. Reason being that everyone seems to think that if you were to spend £2500, there would be far better older machines like a sedgewick , wadkin, etc.

My main question was really if there was a difference between a new 1k machine, vs a new 2.5k machine and if the difference was truly worth more than double cost?

Deema actually suggested a professionally refurbished saw, which are widely available.

He did also link to a 240v Sedgwick ta315, which is not an old saw at all; the chances of there being anything seriously wrong with it are slim! These can be had for £1500.

Personally, I’ve bought old saws (Startrite, Wadkin, Royal) for as little as £30, and done very little to get them mechanically sound.

But given your concerns and your budget I would look first at a professionally refurbished, older saw.

For reference:
https://www.machinery22.com/refurbished

 

[recipio]

Many of my thoughts are echoed exactly by your words regarding older machines. I would love to do it as a 'passion project' but not as the only saw I have that I need it to work

the ITech 01332 does have the twin slots you mentioned which allows for great jig versatility. As does the laguna i refferenced. From what Ive seen most newer, decent saws do too, even the jobsite one. cheers

I made it a rule not to buy any machine that I could not move myself. ! I appreciate you might have access to a fork lift truck but for the average Joe in his shed moving the cast iron machines can be a real problem. I only mention the twin slots as with a long arbour you can use moulding heads and dado blades. With a zero clearance sled you can machine wood very accurately to a pencil line. A bit amateurish but it works for me.

 

[SLM]

Very few of us have the room for a big slider saw but a compromise is something like the Axminster AT254LS which can have a slider rail as an add on. Personally I have an old DeWalt 746 with a 5/8 " arbour and I am a devotee of the American system. One thing I find invaluable is the twin slots machined in the bed of American saws which allows the use of zero clearance crosscut sleds. Single slot sleds are not quite as accurate. Unfortunately I don't think these kind of saws are available in the UK anymore. I'm afraid the OP will have to decide on his priorities based on budget and specifications. I'd be reluctant to get into renovating old cast iron machines as a beginner - who needs the hassle ?

I’ve had 4 old British saws, of which only one needed “refurbished”. The bulk of the work was in cleaning up the cast iron table, and cosmetic work. Beyond that, there was no more work than in commissioning a brand new saw. All these saws have two slots as per you “American style”. Not that I advocate the use of sleds.

 

[Housey210]

cheap unit

 

[Woodwork Journey Dean]

Ironically the Laguna f2 is a $1300 that is £2300 over here after a quick look at the website.

I’d still sell my left nut for one though

 

[Ttrees]

I made it a rule not to buy any machine that I could not move myself

Does this rule out the Sedgewick, I must look at the weight specs again.
I've got 2 cabinet tablesaws... the Startrite 275 DS with sliding fence
and another strange which I bought one for a hundred quid
(thinking it was a farm style machine I could steal the motor from, but not so)

The heavier one is prob 250kg+ whilst the Startrite is 210kg
The tables seem of the same weight, only than the cabinet of the 275 is made from
biscuit tins.
A heavier base is no trouble, both machines move about easily on castors.

Not mentioned, I don't think... is that it's nice to have a heavier table
(this is where the specs don't lie)
so one can fit their own *deep* timber zero clearance inserts, as some of the throat plates
on the cheaper options might not lend themselves to this, needing a thin ali plate due to the skimpin out.

Dual trunnions for me, if I were to buy again, likely wont if I can get away with it.
That means Sedgewick, for my would be budget,
with hopefully metric fittings, should there be examples of either.
Deema's suggestion has got dual slots in the table, and sliding fence.
I think I recall not all all of them are such.

What else is out there, with even twice my would be budget,
i.e what's the Italian options like, and at what weight do the SCM machines start off at?
I have an inkling those might be too heavy for my setup,
so no choice to me other than Sedgewick,
Not knowing much about tablesaws, like Deema for instance,
but I guess there's not much changes made to these in the years (much like Italian bandsaws)
which is a good thing for many reasons,
nice to have a very very fimiliar/ the same quality machine, as many others do.


Hope that helps you.
All the best

Tom

 

[benjamino613]

Ironically the Laguna f2 is a $1300 that is £2300 over here after a quick look at the website.

I’d still sell my left nut for one though

So just half a nut if buying in USA?

 

[deema]

@Ttrees It really depends on exactly what you want. For my own saw I have now settled on a L’Invincible SCM Si15F it weighs close to 1 tonne! It’s a brute of a saw, not much larger than a Sedgwick, but has a 50” sliding solid cast iron table, extensions for full sheets and a scribe blade. Mine is fitted with a 7.5 KW motor, but they did smaller versions. The engineering is ridiculously massive in every way. I think if you dropped it from an aircraft it would just dent the earth and remain intact. I’ve restored a few, and none have had any wear to the table. The cut quality is brilliant, the fence massive and truly accurate. They are in my opinion the heaviest best built saw of their size, trumping Wadkin by a fair way. @Sideways after ‘playing’ with mine bought one and has his in a single garage (converted to single phase). Now they are fairly rare and some have been abused that I’ve seen come up. But they are stupidly cheap. Most sell for less than £1K, it’s not unusual to see them at the £500 to £750 level. Why? Well I think the weight puts a lot of people off, they also think they are huge, and nobody has heard of them. They were designed to be commercially used, ie 24/7

To move it around, if the need ever arises a pallet truck is your friend. A rising platform one which can act as the outfeed table makes an ideal addition to almost all workshops.

When I bought it, I collected it on mine own, getting it out of a workshop which had three steps up to negotiate, and a steep driveway, so they can be moved single handed without specialist lifting gear.


If you’re after something a fraction smaller, I would look at the Wadkin BGS12. Brilliant slider, everything is adjustable to get the slider Bob on, but isnt easy to setup if it’s out.

The Sedgwick TA350, 400 and early 450 are all in essence the same saw. Very well built, nothing to go wrong with them really. Changing the belts when it’s needed is very hard. Not easy to work on if they require maintenance as you have to lift the top off to which everything is attached. Dust extraction is, well, like all saws, useless, but worse than most that make an attempt to collect the dust.

 

[Ttrees]

The Sedgwick TA350, 400 and early 450 are all in essence the same saw. Very well built, nothing to go wrong with them really.

Which is kinda what I was thinking, very fimiliar to the likes of yourself, or those is the refurbishment game.

Here is an excellent thread by Baja-king, which I guess you've seen already...
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/harvey-table-saw-refurbishment.116812/page-2#post-1358577
I doubt it would take much nagging for someone in the UK who might make these up
to add Sedgewick to their repertoire, if it might indeed be easy.
Seems to me, this idea will become the norm?
Wouldn't be surprised if Sedgewick themselves might make an add on.

I'd love to read folks thoughts on that.

Tom

 

[deema]

It’s just my view, based on my own experience. I like to be on the back end of my saw if we are cutting a lot, taking off! Why? Well if you’re loading you get a shower of dust, the loader slowly changes colour as they become totally covered in saw dust. The saw has crown guard extraction and lower blade extraction linked to a good extractor, but the saw dust comes at you horizontally. It come’s from the teeth just poking (ie set to bottom of gullet height) through the top of the stuff, and at a good rate of speed. Now, loading your able with my saw to actually reach the optimal feed rate for the blade, which is fast, a lot faster than most people would ever think or indeed with most under powered saws be able to achieve which to a small extent explains the saw dust shower. I’ve tried all sorts to reduce the shower, all with little to no effect. Ive tried with other saws with different extraction, all are the same. If you feed at a slow rate which will reduce blade life, reduce cut quality, dust is significantly reduced, but not eliminated. My conclusion, no dust extraction is really effective on a circular saw, however if you’re cutting kilometres of stuff it stops you wading in saw dust, so it is useful. For hobby use, just wear a dust mask and don’t worry about chasing utopia of dust collection as I dont think it’s feasible.