oil stones

[lurcher]

hi does anyone still use oil stones .
i have a nice collection of all natural stones washita charrnley forrest slate and others i find i use them more now than ever before and they have made my diamond stones nearly redundant.
i find i can get all that is needed with a good washita and a strop so so easy also all free hand no jiggy jigs here to tight to buy one ha ha

 

[AndyT]

Hmm... Oilstones, jigs, sharpening.... Has anyone already said what they do ? Has anyone else mentioned using an oilstone? I think it might have happened, once or twice, but there was probably nothing to discuss. :wink:

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Norton India combination and Inigo Jones slate. The India plus a stropping does fine for most work, the slate gives a finer polished edge for final smoothing and fine paring. The 'system' is bench-friendly, so I can touch up a tool whenever I feel it's getting to the point of needing it, and it's quick.

Suits me, anyway.

 

[bugbear]

hi does anyone still use oil stones .
i have a nice collection of all natural stones washita charrnley forrest slate and others i find i use them more now than ever before and they have made my diamond stones nearly redundant.
i find i can get all that is needed with a good washita and a strop so so easy also all free hand no jiggy jigs here to tight to buy one ha ha

An Eclipse jig is 50p at car boot. A Norton India retails at £20

Charnley Forrest's go for £50 on eBay

I'm not sure your point is defensible.

Ha Ha.

BugBear

 

[essexalan]

Oil stones? Nasty, slow cutting, dirty, oily things and so last century,,,,or was it the one before? Last half decent CF I saw on ebay went for more than a hundred quid and there are tons of the stuff still in the ground just up the road. Anyway I don't use oil on my CFs but they are so slow compared to a Sigma 13K and it is all about speed isn't it? Norton have a whole mountain of Washitas just sitting there and they can't be bothered to process the stuff, no money in it or what?

 

[adrspach]

I have few oilstones and use them every so often. Yes mostly they are slower but they are more fun. And yes I also have few synthetics and also Atoma plates.

 

[D_W]

Oil stones? Nasty, slow cutting, dirty, oily things and so last century,,,,or was it the one before? Last half decent CF I saw on ebay went for more than a hundred quid and there are tons of the stuff still in the ground just up the road. Anyway I don't use oil on my CFs but they are so slow compared to a Sigma 13K and it is all about speed isn't it? Norton have a whole mountain of Washitas just sitting there and they can't be bothered to process the stuff, no money in it or what?

They can charge a hundred per stone, but claim it's not worth it. Not sure why making trans stones is, then.

Used properly, oilstones are faster than waterstones, and there still isn't a synthetic that matches a Norton crystolon for grinding.

 

[ED65]

Lurcher, I use a few oilstones interchangeably with diamond plates as the mood suits me. I don't find oilstones slow on a day-to-day basis and I don't think you need anything finer than is easily available in oilstone territory, i.e. no CF or similar needed, if there's a loaded strop available to finish off.

 

[essexalan]

Oil stones? Nasty, slow cutting, dirty, oily things and so last century,,,,or was it the one before? Last half decent CF I saw on ebay went for more than a hundred quid and there are tons of the stuff still in the ground just up the road. Anyway I don't use oil on my CFs but they are so slow compared to a Sigma 13K and it is all about speed isn't it? Norton have a whole mountain of Washitas just sitting there and they can't be bothered to process the stuff, no money in it or what?

They can charge a hundred per stone, but claim it's not worth it. Not sure why making trans stones is, then.

Used properly, oilstones are faster than waterstones, and there still isn't a synthetic that matches a Norton crystolon for grinding.

You mean they could sell Washitas for a hundred each? Sounds like the basis for a very good cottage industry to me. The translucent stones seem to have a bit of a cult following hence the price. Well the Japanese according to Odate kept a carborundum stone in their sharpening kit for fast cutting, bevel repair and such like. Crystolon is a synthetic stone and the Sigma 120 I found to be far better but power driven grinding of primary bevels is the way to go except for rather more delicate carving tools where a Washita will do the job and get me almost to a edge that just needs stropping. None of this has improved my carving in the slightest

 

[D_W]

re: the washita stones, Norton probably doesn't make much money off of stones. As to why they would do trans and black stones for a similar price when the stock is much smaller and has more waste cutting, I don't know. It might have something to do with a limited market for the washita - which could very well be something where everyone who wants one buys it in a couple of months.

They did say at the time (IIRC) that they didn't like that they had to open the mine, take the stock to the northeast (new hampshire?) where they process stones and then process them.

I think they would rather serve industry with abrasives, or even put 3x paper in home stores where their is much more exposure and a bigger market. They own the only true washita mine, though, so if they don't open it and cut it, it won't be on the open market. Some old literature that I've seen said the pike mine raw stock comes out in huge chunks (2500 pounds was a number that I recall) and that uniform stones are easily cut from it.

re: the crystolon, if you tried one, the medium is the one for tools, it needs to be relatively new (the old ones don't release their grit), and it's best used in an oil bath. It should better the sigma power because they're about the same grit, but the crystolon is the only one of the two that you can use continuously without ever doing anything to clean it. In something like an IM 313, it's maintenance free (those IM 313 shells are cheap here unless they're full of good stones, and they make a better platform than one would guess).

Ditto on the grinder, that's the thing that makes the oilstones faster than waterstones. Certainly, if someone was going to work the entire bevel of a tool, a washita isn't going to be faster than a 400 chosera. When the grinder is part of it, it's definitely faster. No maintenance on the stones, either, aside from possibly wiping them off once a day with a dry paper towel.

 

[essexalan]

A good Washita will last you a lifetime or two which would not make it economically viable for Norton who would much rather cover that market with their waterstones and made in Mexico India oilstones. Perfectly happy with the Sigma 120 so no need to change, I reckon it hogs off steel faster than a diamond plate and you can easily flatten it if required.
I did prep 5 old steel English firmer chisels yesterday morn going from a bit of a mess to a good cutting edge in about an hour using belt and waterstones Sigma 400 and 1200 for the back and 6K and 13K for the bezel. Just a quick rub over with an Atoma to clean the swarf off, the stones did not need flattening. Suits me enough that I will stick to it. Yes you can get a hair cutting edge from a Washita but I can get the same from a 1K waterstone on a Japanese kitchen knife, similar scratch pattern but a bit toothy for my liking.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

hi does anyone still use oil stones .

I must be mixing in the wrong circles. Much of my work over the last two or three years has been in joinery workshops. In such places oilstones are pretty common, so yes, lots of people still use oilstones. Some of the joiners have a mix of oilstones and a diamond stone or two. I've even taken to carrying about one of my combination oilstones and it gets regular use. Oilstones are far less prissy or fussy than my normal ceramic stone set-up that I prefer when carrying on finer craft furniture work, which will get a finer edge than the oilstones. However, a stone in a box, some 3 in 1 oil, a bit rag, a couple of minutes to take apart a plane and swish the iron up and down the stone, reassemble the plane and that's more than good enough for most work. Chisels are even faster - you don't need to disassemble or reassemble them of course - for them it's simply sharp'n'go, no poncing around, ha, ha.

I think the big attraction for oilstones in a busy production environment is their simplicity, reliability, their ability to sharpen quickly (to good enough only perhaps) and their inherent unfussiness. Slainte.

 

[G S Haydon]

I do, India combination stone is perfect for a working joiner.

 

[memzey]

A few swipes on a Washita to raise a burr, a few more on a surgical black Ark then a brief strop (autosol on MDF, not the teenager kind). Takes hardly any time at all and always hair poppingly sharp results. It might not be enough for everyone but from my perspective if that regime gives me more than enough sharpness, why would I want to introduce any more complexity or cost?

 

[Trafalgar]

Norton fine India and a strop, charged are not, are all you really need. Keep a box of fine wood shavings on your sharpening bench or near wherever you sharpen. Grab a handful and rub your hands and thumbs after honing and all the oil is gone, along with any grime that was already there. Cleanest hands in town. Throw shavings on floor. Sweep up at end of day. Refill box occasionally. Poplar and/or pine shavings seem to work the best.

When getting oil off the stone, just blot, don't rub which just abrades lint onto the stone and clogs it.

 

[D_W]

A good Washita will last you a lifetime or two which would not make it economically viable for Norton who would much rather cover that market with their waterstones and made in Mexico India oilstones. Perfectly happy with the Sigma 120 so no need to change, I reckon it hogs off steel faster than a diamond plate and you can easily flatten it if required.
I did prep 5 old steel English firmer chisels yesterday morn going from a bit of a mess to a good cutting edge in about an hour using belt and waterstones Sigma 400 and 1200 for the back and 6K and 13K for the bezel. Just a quick rub over with an Atoma to clean the swarf off, the stones did not need flattening. Suits me enough that I will stick to it. Yes you can get a hair cutting edge from a Washita but I can get the same from a 1K waterstone on a Japanese kitchen knife, similar scratch pattern but a bit toothy for my liking.

Certainly not advocating replacing the 120 if it works fine. Just making the point that the type does work a little better and with no maintenance if it's oil as its designed. The cut is about as fast, too. The only place where people go wrong with them is buying big vintage silicon carbide stones that have gotten hard - they are almost impossible to use due to an inability to release particles.

re: the 1200 and 13000 sigma powers - I have those stones. The edge off of a washita is much better than the 1200, but of course, not as fine as the 13k. I know a lot of people slurry a washita, which I do for one that I use to set the bevels on razors from time to time (I don't ever reset a bevel unless I get a new razor and it needs it), but I don't think it's great policy if using the washita to finish an edge, and it's a transient effect, anyway, given how soft novaculite is compared to other abrasives.

I have gone to finishing new edges now with sandpaper to washita and then that's pretty much it. (I just noticed that I did lap the washita here, relatively lightly, because I wanted it to work the groovers of the sandpaper off).

https://youtu.be/OOMjSwcEnsU?t=10m

(pardon the whine, it was due to a temporary software problem from an android update)

I probably won't finish irons any other way going forward. there are certain things that the limited abrasive power of the washita does really well. One of those is to remove imperfections but not do that much to what's left once a surface is flat. I have only gotten one comment on the flatness after this process, but it was from Brian Holcombe, who remarked that the iron was flat to his stone without any work. Used in combination with filing, I can get plane bottoms to less than 1.5 thousandths flat with this lap, too - it stays flat.

I went to the method above because once I started to build planes, I still need the back of the iron to be as flat as it would be if it were factory made (it needs to take a polish at the edge on any flat stone without additional work), but also be able to remove pitting on parallel and taper plane iron sets that I find relatively quickly. I've pretty much abandoned water stones for this kind of work. Or I should say, I've pretty much abandoned waterstones - except for japanese finishers. I still like them quite a bit, and the level of sharpness in this video, which is plenty fine for any work, is about doubled by a middle of the road suita stone (and those are expensive, but they come without the fragility that synthetic stones have, and a little more of the flexibility to determine fineness by pressure/slurry, etc.

 

[essexalan]

I just followed Stoo's instructions for the #120 and provided you use lots of water then it just keeps on cutting, moving to oil would mean no going back. I did say the Sigma 1K which is a different stone to the 1.2K seems to be finer and slower cutting while the 1.2K is softer, comparatively, and cuts fast. One thing that Washitas are not is soft they will eat diamond plates! Same abrasive as just about any other natural stone out there just they are all abrasive. Must wear some of mine in some more prepping some chisels should do that and see if I can get a finer finish.
Good video and the method works, seems to be about pressure and getting the abrasive to cut the hardened steel and not let the steel just skate across the top. I need a longer run of the stuff for an out of wonk #7 but that will have to wait until I get the bench built. Plate glass in the UK tends anything but flat so I usually use float glass plus unable to find rolls of PSA so 3M glue it is.
I will stick to my waterstones for plane irons and knives but chisels are either old English or Japanese so will start using some of the naturals I have acquired. No Suitas for me way out of my price range but I must sort out a straight razor one day.

 

[D_W]

I've had $60 "Koppa" that finished a razor as well as anything else. Of course, the sigma power will do it just fine, too, with the exception of a very few razors (once in a while, you come across a razor that will not tolerate synthetic stones, but the chances are against it occurring).

I had it in my mind that you were a shaver, not sure why.

Something may have changed with the 1.2K if you're saying it cuts fast (unless you're talking about the 1k, which I never used or had). My 1.2k SP stone is very fine and hard, almost too much so. I liked the bester 1200 better, but I'm out of that kind of thing as my shop is sometimes 40F in the winter, and grabbing cold wet stones is not something I fancy.

If you have a run long enough to check scratches on your 7, but not long enough to lap it, draw filing may be a decent option. I am for a thousandth on infills doing mostly filing, but I can only measure to 1 1/2 thousandths with feelers, so I'm guessing. Lapping small cast planes is fast and accurate, but I don't get quite the same level of accuracy lapping mild steel because it is resistant to abrasion. The next time I have to do a large plane out of cast iron, I will be trying the file method.

(not suggesting you should replace the #120 or put oil in it. If you ever seen an IM 313 complete at a yard sale for a couple of pounds, though, I'd pick it up).

 

[essexalan]

IFAIK the 1.2K is Alox and the 1K SiC. The 1.2K is quite porous as in you can see the water soaking in and is definitely a fast cutter quite happy to handle any steel I have used it with. Comparatively soft as in you do get particle release but you are not down and playing in the mud like the Kings. I do not like the much vaunted Shaptons and wish I had never bought them. I sharpen in my kitchen so no frozen buckets of water for me.

The Stanley #7 seems to be quite flat from toe to mouth and then falls in a convex curve to the heel , my guess it that it has been sat for years with the frog screws over tightened and the cap lock tightened down. Draw filing is an option, hand abrasive paper or I did read about somebody using a scraper on cast iron planes, dunno never seen one.

Never seen a IM 313 but you can buy them for 295 quid, silly money you can buy a ProEdge for that!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I had a Marples No.5 with a bad wind in the sole - I took most of it out with a fine flapwheel on an angle grinder.