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Just a quick comment re spring steel - the clue is in the name - it should be quite bendable - saw makers often demonstrated this by bending their best hand saws in a complete circle (tip to handle). After all spring steel is not the very highest level of carbon and should not be tempered to a very high hardness/brittleness (hacksaws and disposable tip hardened may differ). However I do agree that teeth can break off - why? - maybe the roughness of cutting/refiling can leave a notch which would be a crack initiator? I'd be surprised if they could break by clamping in a vice, but it's not my expensive new saw ( I just have flea market bargains (Disston, S& J, Tyzack) or a disposable or two.
 
Spring steel, springs, absolutely within its elastic limits.....keeping the techno babble to a minimum. However, once spring steel has been bent enough to take a set, a permanent change in its shape then you have done something it doesn’t like.

Yes, we set the teeth on saws, and generally the recommendation is to never over set and try to bend teeth back, as they can and do break off, old or new saws. Older saws are more prone to this as the steel ages. There is lots of good info if you google spring steel on how to work it, and what you should and shouldn’t do.

The saw does what it should, buts wood. Whether the saw cut meets a persons expectations is down to a personal perspective. It’s not a hard point saw and will need sharpening as some point. If your not happy with it just bite the bullet and have a go.
 
I'm not really sure how to explain this without 'techno-babble' (or using my knowledge of materials science gleaned from professional training and experience), but it's a matter of how much steels are deformed, worked or stressed before fatigue cracking (see - can't do it without techno terms) occurs. Once it does in harder steels, the cracks tend to run fast, so failure happens fairly quickly. It's much slower in softer steels.

Spring temper is towards the softer end for heat-treated tool steels, so there is some scope for deformation without catastrophic failure. That's why setting a saw is OK. The limited angle through which teeth are bent also reduces the chances of failure significantly - setting teeth out at right angles and then reverse bending would be much more likely to result in failure, as would repeated oversetting and reverse bending.

Another factor that is often very significant is corrosion, and this does cause embrittlement. Any vintage saw with corrosion along the toothline (unless it's very superficial) will almost certainly result in broken teeth even if the attempted setting is quite minimal. The usual problem with such vintage saws is not oversetting but the reverse - no set at all! I agree with Deema here - corroded teeth are best jointed off and new teeth cut in good metal.

There's theory, and there's practice. I do know the theory (in outline - it can get VERY complex), but I've also had a go at the practice in this case. In a newish saw with no corrosion problem, overset teeth can safely be squeezed or hammered back without breakage. I've done it, as have many others, and it works. Just don't do it repeatedly on the same saw, and don't try it on an old saw with corrosion problems.
 
If you paid good money for a saw that you dislike because of a rough set, send it back and invest in a higher quality saw?
 
Thanks Chesh - I didn't consider this carefully enough - I'm sure corrosion is a major factor in the occasional tooth breakage when I refile and set an old flea market saw - it wouldn't take much and the gullet would be a prime site for rust. The 'old boys' often mention re-crystallisation as a factor for carbon steel breakage, but I believe this is unlikely in most cases.
You're obviously a qualified fellow - what's your take on this?
 
I would contact the suppliers first as see what they say about it.

Pete
 
AJB Temple":312xtg1b said:
If you paid good money for a saw that you dislike because of a rough set, send it back and invest in a higher quality saw?

Not slighting a perfectly reasonable answer, but something simple here has been made very complicated. Even buying another saw is more complicated and would probably result in being more out of pocket.

Most of the rest of the arguments on the internet about joinery saws (what steel, how hard, etc) are about 5% of satisfaction, and the rest is getting the teeth to a desirable condition.

Great chance to learn something here that can be applied all over the place later, too - and something that's easy and low risk.
 
AJB Temple":2oan2qp2 said:
If you paid good money for a saw that you dislike because of a rough set, send it back and invest in a higher quality saw?

This is about as much as I wanted to spend, and if it's a simple fix, I'd rather just do it. Got to learn this stuff at some point, right?

And given that there are zero specifications for the saw other than it's length and TPI, I don't think I really have a right to complain. I'll at least get charged for the returns cost.

I appreciate that if I make cockup of it, I can't send it back, but I'm ok with that. I'll just have to learn how to correct it.
 
You're taking the right track. This is akin to changing brake pads on a car. It costs about $150 for a set of high quality pads and rotors for most cars. Most folks (me for a while) looked at the calipers and all of the lines attached and thought about driving over a cliff and decide to leave it to a mechanic.

The result around here is typically $400 for a front change of rotors and brakes, and it's so easy that it's often sprung by garages as something that needs to be done to pass inspection.

It takes about 2 hours to do the first time at home and then an hour after that. It takes me an hour and a half to get back and forth to the garage to drop a car off and pick it up (two trips each way to avoid time off work). Now, when a mechanic springs the comment about rotors or brakes needing to be changed for inspect, I ask them if the rotors are too narrow, what's the thickness of the pads and are the rotors scored or pitted past inspection and suddenly "I'll go take a look, maybe they don't". They won't risk changing good brakes as they are required by law to provide the old parts to a customer if requested - a pair of clean rotors that match government spec or pads that have a lot of thickness later could lead to real trouble.

Now you'll know something that will save you time and money in the future. With a new plate, unless you really clumsily set teeth back and forth several times, you'll likely never see a broken tooth (across all newer saws). The issue with broken teeth is a good reminder maybe to avoid saws from pre-perfected sawmaking periods (but even the backsaws can be easily replated - the long handsaws, it's good practice if you're not in for a wild goose chase to keep to saws after 1900 or so - pretty much across tools and razors and such, hardening of thin steel took a leap forward in evenness around 1890. Maybe a coincidence that it's at the same time for both.
 
Boom. New saw right, Veritas left.

(I used the vice/paper method)
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Sent from my SM-J510FN using Tapatalk
 
Excellent! =D> =D> Another step on the never-ending woodworking education......

Did you just squish the teeth in a vice, or did you have to re-set them?
 
MikeG.":1ulae9f8 said:
Excellent! =D> =D> Another step on the never-ending woodworking education......

Did you just squish the teeth in a vice, or did you have to re-set them?

I just squished them in my metal vice. I had to use Aluminium angle iron as vice jaws though as the jaws on the vice have a fairly rough grid pattern.
 
So, basically, saw teeth in spring steel can be bent outwards for plate clearance and, as long as there's no weakening factors such as rust or fracturing at critical points in the tooth geometry, they can pretty reliably be bent back a bit to reduce plate clearance if desired. Thanks for the information.

I must admit there's been many a saw over the years that I've taken the set off a bit after finding the teeth set wider than I liked, or didn't suit one of the learners I was teaching. I can't recall ever breaking a tooth off, and that includes reducing the set on a few old manky or rusticated saws. But I've never tried to mess around with tooth set on any of those £5 - £15 hardpoint saws: can't see the point for that money, ha ha. Slainte.
 
Off topic but with reference to vice jaws.

I bought a Samsonia Perfect Model 37 J locally off ebay. The previous owner had reversed the jaws to use the vice smooth jawed. The result was that the jaws were like new. So it might be possible to reverse the jaws if you want smooth jaws.

Nigel.
 
transatlantic":cyo62e5i said:
MikeG.":cyo62e5i said:
Excellent! =D> =D> Another step on the never-ending woodworking education......

Did you just squish the teeth in a vice, or did you have to re-set them?

I just squished them in my metal vice. I had to use Aluminium angle iron as vice jaws though as the jaws on the vice have a fairly rough grid pattern.

I like to think I'm pretty handy making tools and fixing tools. In one day, you've caught me on saw setting skills.

I'm glad that you persevered. I've never had to re-set anything, either. For hardwoods, it takes only a little set. If there is none, it's very noticeable after about half inch or an inch!! but other than that, it takes little.

Keep this in mind when you get to the future. You can just (as in a little bit, not tons) overset your saw on purpose and then use this trick to bring everything back in place. The result will be more even than it would be if you individually set teeth.
 
I wonder why they would put such a large set on it in the first place?

I can understand that it needs some set (perhaps a bit more than the averge woodworker would want), as customers would complain it binds otherwise.

But having as much set as it did really made it horrible to use.

It's a bit like mitre slots on /portable/ tablesaws (even mid-range saws). They give them so much tolerance to not bind, that they become almost useless. Although that is something you can't fix easily.
 
Nigel Burden":1p1xzpgi said:
Off topic but with reference to vice jaws.

I bought a Samsonia Perfect Model 37 J locally off ebay. The previous owner had reversed the jaws to use the vice smooth jawed. The result was that the jaws were like new. So it might be possible to reverse the jaws if you want smooth jaws.

Nigel.

Ah - thanks for that - will have a look
 

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