New kitchen project

[engineer one]

works for me :lol: :lol: :lol:
paul :wink:

 

[Jake]

These guys do non-standard sizes - for no extra charge they say (presumably meaning they charge for next standard size up or something).

I don't know how their prices compare generally.

 

[engineer one]

uh what guys jake, no link

paul :wink:

 

[Scrit]

I have a goodly sized "cluster" of carcass manufacturers around Manchester so that's not an issue. Generally, though, non-standard sizes just means non-standard widths. If you need, say, 250mm deep upper cabs, a corner unit to take 400mm doors, 235mm wide upper gallery ends, or a 140mm wide spice drawer unit (all recent requirements) then they can't help. When I say non-standard, I really mean it :wink:

Scrit

 

[jasonB]

Jason, have you ever tried polishing out scratched with a Fein? Just wondered if it's worth getting the kit.

Scrit

Not tried it with a Fien, would have thought the size of the pad a bit small, did't know they did the pads for them. I've used my Metabo 450 to polish small amounts of Corian when I've done the fit but mostly I get the granite/corian guys to do whats needed.

Jason

 

[Jake]

uh what guys jake, no link

paul :wink:

Must be your browser, honest.

These guys...

http://www.frontlinecabinets.co.uk/

 

[Jake]

I have a goodly sized "cluster" of carcass manufacturers around Manchester so that's not an issue. Generally, though, non-standard sizes just means non-standard widths. If you need, say, 250mm deep upper cabs, a corner unit to take 400mm doors, 235mm wide upper gallery ends, or a 140mm wide spice drawer unit (all recent requirements) then they can't help. When I say non-standard, I really mean it :wink:

Scrit

It might not interest you, but there could be others who might find it useful.

They'll vary any of the dimensions - the guy laughed at me for asking that question. It's all CNC, so they just type in the dimensions and it comes out the other end.

 

[sean_in_limerick]

Paul - i can definitely say that my wall will not be straight and true - nothing in my house is - when you say overhang the top - wouldn't this have to be scribed to the wall still? I agree that granite is probably to0 painful (for me) to install. My local granite guys insist on a template of the countertop made from plywood - i don't like this as i think the onus should be on them to do the measuring - then there is the cost - i don't think it's that big a deal, and fortunately - neither does the wife.

Good advice regarding access for the services - what type of backs do people typically use for the carcases - i was thinking of using 3.2mm white plywood (it's what is available locally)- but people here are suggesting 8mm - is this necessary for strength?

I see from my american books that they like to fix floor units to the wall by attatching a cleat to the back and screwing directly into the the wall - this isn't really an option for me as i have brick walls - do you guys usually attach the base units to the wall, and if so how do you do it?

What thickness MFC is typically used for carcases? I can get 3/4" in full 8*4 sheets, but for some bizarre reason i can only get the 21", 18" 8ft long MFC in 5/8" - is this thick enough?

What material is typically used for toekicks?

Thanks,

Sean

 

[George_N]

Services at the back of carcasses need a 50mm space - the largest waste you'll normally see is a 40mm so 50mm space gives you room to manouvre. Normal carcass depth is 570mm, front to rear, with a base carcass height of 720mm (uppers are 575/720 as a rule).

Scrit

Isn't that going to be too deep? If the carcasses are 570 mm deep with a 50 mm gap at the back for services, even my maths makes that 620 mm. If you add another 20 mm for the door that makes 640 mm. I am intending to make my units 520 mm deep + 50 mm service gap + 20 mm door = 590 mm, which should fit under my 600 mm worktop ok. Unless I'm missing something?

cheers

George

 

[sean_in_limerick]

I am also unsure how the service access works? Could you give a brief description of what is actually required?

Sean

 

[engineer one]

ok guys.
standard suggestion. go look in B&Q, not sure if that is practical for you
sean, but all guys in uk see the main cheapskate competition.

years ago i fitted some b&q units in the kitchen of my folks,.
two years ago the council decided to re=do the kitchens
they'd got some new money, and something called
"better homes programme"

replaced the units with new ones which are 10 per cent smaller back to
front, and the top units do not take normal sized plates #-o

remember almost all work tops are between 600 and 620 back to front.
and your cabinet needs to be about 20 back from the front edge.

next check out things like any metal trays and so on that you want to
use, they will give a good guide to the depth.
finally check your waste pipe from the sink, that is the maximum
so in the sink unit, you need the largest distance between the wall and
the back of the unit. after that you can modify.

for long term stability i would use 18mm mfc, and to retain the front
edge have you checked the economics of using 600 mm boards rather than cutting up 2440 x 1220 and then putting tape on???

most fitters in the uk do not seem to fix at the back, when doing quick build, they kind of rely on the top being fitted onto the wall with silicone.

i feel that a number of battens on a brick wall just under the top do
offer a number of advantages, and enhance strength, but it might be
overkill.

as for the top, tell them to take a running jump
they supply and fit top to their measurements and that offers a proper
guarantee.

finally you only need access flaps at certain points, so on the normal
carcase, again look for strength, and 6 or 8 mm mdf is cheap enough,
and offers a more stable surface. i am inclined to fit solidly with
air pins or screws, although the store bought ones tend to be
floating, they just slide in.

where you have access needs, put a couple of battens across the carcase
and fix solidly at top and bottom. in middle screw from inside to cover the gap, put the proper washers on, and make sure you can get to where you
need, it is a real pain in the a*** having to hack a little bit more
just to get your hand in.

remember that the washing machine and a dishwasher will always eventually leak, so try to add a bit of space on all three sides to allow you
to get them out, make sure there is enough cable to keep it plugged in, but almost in the middle of the kitchen when being worked on (you wish :lol: ) and i suggest some kind of water proof tray which will catch the drips, and maybe channel them into the nearest drain.

couple more thoughts which are kind of environmental. don't
know whether you can do it, but maybe arrange for your waste water to be collected in a tank outside, and then re-used to flush the loo or
water the garden.. :twisted: :shock:


finally remember rubber plugs if you can. enough sockets, and
comfortable height to the top of the worktop. of someone who
will use the kitchen a lot is shorter, make a dropped down section.
and really finally for now, make sure that you lay out the
cupboards and draws properly so you can reach the back of cupboards
properly, and draws do not only half open because something else is in
the way. in my folks kitchen they sent a right hand cupboard not a left
and the wait was six weeks, so a whole corner is wasted.
also think about those pull our larder type cupboards,.although expensive
if you buy the hafele unit it really does work well, so maybe make
a wooden one on full extension slides.

let me know if i can help further
paul :wink:

 

[Scrit]

....vary any of the dimensions - the guy laughed at me for asking that question. It's all CNC, so they just type in the dimensions and it comes out the other end.

That all depends on whether or not they have their CNC programs set-up parametrically or not, and even then they normally can't handle extremes or certain specials (I have a point-to-point CNC in my shop so there I'm talking from experience). If buying-in carcasses there is generally a minimum order value of £500 to £750, below which you attract delivery charges or minimum order charges, hence the preference of using someone I can drive to.

Scrit

 

[Jake]

Sure - I was really using your comments as a hook on which to hang information about those guys - I looked for ages to find anyone who could be anywhere near as flexible as them and who would supply retail. I can't be bothered to build carcasses out of MFC for about the same cost as buying them, and with the additional work involved - and there must be others in the same boat. Not the most satisfying of 'wood'working tasks either.

I wasn't advocating that you personally should use them - and no doubt there are limits to what they can and will do, but those limits are much higher than most suppliers willing to supply retail.

Anyway, I can't actually recommend them as I haven't used them yet.

 

[Scrit]

I can definitely say that my wall will not be straight and true - nothing in my house is - when you say overhang the top - wouldn't this have to be scribed to the wall still? I agree that granite is probably too painful (for me) to install. My local granite guys insist on a template of the countertop made from plywood - I don't like this as I think the onus should be on them to do the measuring - then there is the cost - I don't think it's that big a deal, and fortunately - neither does the wife.

The templating should be down to the granite men. That way if there's a b***s up it's their problem. templating does need to be done after ALL the units are in place, though. Similarly a granite worktop can take four or five big beefy guys to manhandle into place - better their backs than yours...... As I said earlier for granite tops any scribing is normally a case of chiselling away the wall - much easier than modifying the granite.

...what type of backs do people typically use for the carcases

Either 15/18mm solid backs (for corner solutions/carousel units/magic corner units, etc) or 8mm MFC - most sheet merchants can supply this in white one side / magnolia reverse as most of the major board manufacturers such as Kronospan, Finsa and Egger make it. Kronospan also do a beech / metallika combo in 8mm. A word of warning - get the merchant to cut it down - it comes on "jumbos" (circa 2.6/2.8 metres x 2.0 metres). 3mm is too this and will pop-out much too easily in my experience.

The American approach of fixing to walls isn't necessary. Once you've got six or seven units levelled-off and screwed together they don't move that easy. Add a worktop screwed through the front nailers/stretchers and they don't move at all. The only case I'd screw to the wall would be a single, stand-alone carcase, or possibly a run of two alone. Methods - frame fixing (masonry) or long screw into stud (stud walling) - both through top nailer with packer between nailer and wall as required.

What thickness MFC is typically used for carcases? I can get 3/4" in full 8*4 sheets, but for some bizarre reason i can only get the 21", 18" 8ft long MFC in 5/8" - is this thick enough?

What material is typically used for toekicks?

18mm MFC makes for a more durable carcass that 15mm. Some merchants, for example Hills Panel Products in Oldham do ready edged "strips" in a variety of widths, e.g. 570mm for carcasses. That's a quick way to get your materials pre-sized and edge banded. I'd ask around about this.

Plinth covers (American = toekicks) are made from 18mm MFC, too. Normally in a colour to match the doors.

Scrit

 

[Jake]

Services at the back of carcasses need a 50mm space ... Normal carcass depth is 570mm, front to rear.

Isn't that going to be too deep? If the carcasses are 570 mm deep with a 50 mm gap at the back for services, even my maths makes that 620 mm. If you add another 20 mm for the door that makes 640 mm. I am intending to make my units 520 mm deep + 50 mm service gap + 20 mm door = 590 mm, which should fit under my 600 mm worktop ok. Unless I'm missing something?

I think Scrit is including the service gap in the depth of the carcasse - as the sidewalls are full depth, that includes the 50mm. It's just the backwall that is inset by the 50mm.

 

[Scrit]

Isn't that going to be too deep? If the carcasses are 570 mm deep with a 50 mm gap at the back for services, even my maths makes that 620 mm. If you add another 20 mm for the door that makes 640 mm. I am intending to make my units 520 mm deep + 50 mm service gap + 20 mm door = 590 mm, which should fit under my 600 mm worktop ok. Unless I'm missing something?

Clarification: Yes, George. The 525/720 were HEIGHTS. Standard DEPTH is 570mm for lowers, 280mm for uppers, although when I make uppers I prefer to go 350mm on uppers as that will accommodate a large dinner plate with an 8mm back and a ledge behind. The 570mm deoth INCLUDES the access gap which is put in by insetting the back 50mm. You need to run the sides back to the wall so you don't have a gap to hide at the end of a run.

Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

The other "standards" are: door heights (base 570 or 715 high; drawront heights: 140 (for 5-drawer or 570 door + 1 drawer), 175 (for 4-drawer), 283 (2 pan drawers + 140mm rop drawer), 355 (2 pan drawers only) and 110 high is used beneath some ovens. There are others, but they are the most common to work with wirework and standard size drawer units.

One other tip, if I haven't already given it. Seal ALL exposed MFC edges. A quick coat of D3 (exterior grade) PVA will do this quite effectively (you should be using this for dowels in any case if you are dowel constructing).

Scrit

 

[Scrit]

To add to my last post. There is a question here: why used "standard" sizes at all? If you want to buy-in ready-made doors, then standard sizes are the way to go. The doors will then be more or less off the shelf and cheaper. Doing your own carcass can be a money-saver for the home woodworker, but it rarely makes sense for the trade woodworker unless the materials are something special (e.g. laminated solid wood, birch plywood, etc.) or the carcasses are seriuosly odd sizes (like my turned round washing machine "house") because the margins are very thin compared to the outlay on equipment: panel saw, edge bander, line borer or PTP borer, etc. Maybe I'm getting old, but it was never fun edge banding an entire kitchen with a hot iron and a trimmer, well maybe the first time, but the "magic" soon wears off. Edgebanding is a hot smelly operaton best done by a static machine which will always do it better in any case. and for those with a more quality approach - look for 18mm MFC colour-matched carcasses, dowel and glue construction (you will never get corner cabs for carousels this way - they're always KD to get them in the door!) with a 3mm PVC or ABS edging. Get that and you've found a better cab maker.

Scrit

 

[George_N]

Scrit, thanks for all the info on cabinet dimensions etc. We are lucky to have someone around who is willing to share their wealth of knowledge so freely.
I was planning to build my base cabinets to the design in Danny Proulx's book, where he puts a full thickness, full width back on his units for rigidity. This obviously doesn't leave a service gap though. I was hoping to avoid insetting the backs as I don't want to cut housings (dados?) in the sides. If I inset the back and just butt joint it to the sides, I'd be worried about keeping the alignment right but I also don't really want to go down the doweling route for ease of production.

cheers

George

 

[sean_in_limerick]

ditto with that scrit - nice to talk to experts.
I think that the service area is only required for kitchen base units? After all of these discussions on the type of back to use i will probabaly end up using 1/4 inch ply or 8mm mdf for the backs - i really hadn't considered the problems of access to the plumbing under the sink too much - some great advice there.

 

[Scrit]

I was hoping to avoid insetting the backs as I don't want to cut housings (dados?) in the sides. If I inset the back and just butt joint it to the sides, I'd be worried about keeping the alignment right but I also don't really want to go down the doweling route for ease of production.

George, when I make my own I tend to use an 8mm MFC back slid into a router cut groove and glued in place - but only for those carcasses where there's nothing to get at behind. In those case you can go deeper, too, but all carcasses need a front and rear stretcher in 18mm MFC - the rear one is vertical at the rear, the front one is normally horizontal (but see also note below). Where there is plumbing behind the carcass I'm currently considering a design which allows the back to be inserted and removed from the front of the unit and for sink units I nowadays have upright stretchers front and rear rather than a horizontal one at the front - that means you aren't cutting into a stretcher and weakening the structure when you do the sink cut-out inthe worktop as well as giving you something tyo hang false drawer fronts on in a drawerline kitchen. I've built a couple of carcasses like that already but I still haven't perfected it - yet! The reason I use dowels is twofold - firstly a glued and dowelled carcass is extremely rigid (and all the better MFC carcasses you can buy are all done this way), and secondly I have the equipment to make them. Pocket hole screws or KD fittings work well, but ultimately aren't as strong, IMHO.

I think that the service area is only required for kitchen base units? After all of these discussions on the type of back to use i will probabaly end up using 1/4 inch ply or 8mm mdf for the backs - i really hadn't considered the problems of access to the plumbing under the sink too much - some great advice there.

The service gap is indeed only for base units. For upper cabs I'd recommend going to this type of hanger on a long rail. You will need to make up a drilling jig and the backs will need to be notched-out to accommodate the rail, but the rail has the advantage over individual plates of being able to span studs in stud walls and soft patches in old/poor masonry walls. The cab hangers are cam and screw adjusted to level the cabs. I make upper cabs so that the backs slide into a groove from the top and sit in a groove across the bottom. A spot or two of glue holds them and the top is screwed through into the rear of the top panel, which is shorter than the bottom panel. Gioves a rigid, strong and square carcass.

If you have a particularly poor wall you might like to consider adding steel angle brackets to the bottoms of the cabinets when they are hung. Swap the brackets around so that they are hanging down so to speak with the half which is screwed to the wall getting hidden by the cabonet when you hang it. (i.e. attach the "L" to the wall THEN hang the cab) Beats risking your best china!

Finally always join your carcasses together with these, then if you do need to remove a damaged carcass in the future, it can be done.

The Americans may write the books, but I feel the Europeans are 10 or more years ahead in carcass construction hardware and techniques.


Scrit