New kitchen project

[sean_in_limerick]

Greetings All - i am about to embark on a new kitchen - replacing our existing kitchen that we inherited when we moved in (the quality of which i will not comment on). As i have a full-time job as an engineer and two babies to contend with, this may take a while. I hope to keep this topic going throughout as a forum for my own questions/comments and to serve as a reference for anyone else attempting this in the future. This forum if a great place for me to visit as i don't know anybody in the cabinet-making trade and i have lots of questions!
First of all a little of myself - i have been woodworking for a good few years and have built numerous cabinets and things for the house here - i have a penchant for hand-tools were practical but i am no luddite. I have never attempted a project as big as this one but i know if i paid someone to do it i would only be griping about it for years to come. I have a small garage which is relatively well equipped - table-saw, band-saw, planer, thicknesser, router-table etc, but lacks space (who doesn't) - plus far too many hand-tools and gadgets to mention. - to the kitchen.

We have been looking at websites, catalogues and shops locally (limerick, ireland) to get some ideas. I have a few books on kitchen/cabinet construction but these all have an American bias, which is problematic sometimes when it comes to the hardware and materials they use. However i have no problem with the fact that they all have a preference for face-frame construction. I love the look of face-frame construction and will almost certainly go in this direction. I have made rail and style doors before with raised solid wood panels and again, like the look so we will probably go with this. Anything visible (doors, drawers, face-frame, end-panels , mouldings etc) will be made from red-oak, which is available locally and matches much of the rest of the house.

And now to some questions for all you kitchen gurus...

Nearly all of the kitchens that i have seen locally use melamine faced chipboard for the 'boxes'
: Is this a risk due to the high moisture content of kitchens?
: Is MFC structurally strong enough for the full cabinet 'box' - (if for example i mount a granite work-top on top?
: Is plywood a better option?
: Since none of the MFC will be seen from the outside is it ok to just pocket-hole screw everything together
: I am concerned about chipping of the MFC when i cut it - how do people get around this without investing in a new table-saw with a score-cutting blade? (is the festool saw good enough to justify it's ludicrous price?)
: What is the conventional way of attaching shelves when using MFC - normally i have used 'haunched' dado's cut with a router - but i imagine dado's will weaken 18mm MFC too much (i have never wished i had made a shelf adjustable)

Sorry its a bit long and thanks for reading.

Sean

 

[Neil]

Hi Sean,

If I remember correctly, John Elliot (who makes kitchens for a living) uses pocket screws for his cabinets, although I think he uses good quality ply rather than MFC. If you go down this route and find a local supplier of birch ply, please let me know!

(is the festool saw good enough to justify it's ludicrous price?)

You are welcome to try mine if you like - I'm just over an hour from Limerick. I think its a complete bargain!

Cheers,
Neil

 

[George_N]

Sean, I'm in a similar boat to you about to start on a kitchen re-fit. There is quite a lot on this forum and elsewhere about building kitchen cabinets, methods of construction etc. I've got a couple of books by Danny Proulx, a Canadian, on building kitchen cabinets, doors and drawers. He recommends melamine faced chipboard (MFC) which he just butt joints and fastens with chipboard carcass screws. Many people will also say use biscuits and glue or screws and glue. Proulx says screws alone are strong enough and he has run a cabinetmaking business and taught cabinetmaking courses. Melamine also doesn't take glue well. The prototypes I've built using this method certainly seem very strong and stable. This is helped by making the cabinet back full width and of the same thickness board as the sides and base. Cabinets built this way will easily support your worktop, whatever material you choose, because the weight will be spread over a number of units, each with at least 4 legs. As for getting clean edges when cutting MFC have a look at this link, which recommends either using a router to clean up the cut edges or making a first cut with the table saw just deep enough to cut the melamine face and then a second cut at full depth. Both work pretty well with the router giving the best results. Also bear in mind that a lot of your cuts will be hidden at the back of a unit or at the top or bottom, so if you always remember to keep the show side up on the table saw you will be ok. I hope some of this helps.

cheers

George

 

[jasonB]

Hi Sean

I make a few kitchens as well as fitting quite a lot of ready made ones, this onewas all from scratch and there are a few more here

Is this a risk due to the high moisture content of kitchens?

Provided you lip all cut edges there should be no problem with moisture, continuous leaks are what cause the chipboard to swell.

Is MFC structurally strong enough for the full cabinet 'box' - (if for example i mount a granite work-top on top?

Properly constructed a MFC carcase will hold granite without a problem, use a solid back, 8mm will do and make sure the adjustable legs support the carcase sides.

Is plywood a better option?

Probably a bit stronger but Birch ply will cost twice as much as MFC and you will have to apply a finish

Since none of the MFC will be seen from the outside is it ok to just pocket-hole screw everything together

I tend to build with biscuits and carcase screws, if using pocket screws a few biscuits or doweld will help keep all the joints aligned.

I am concerned about chipping of the MFC when i cut it - how do people get around this without investing in a new table-saw with a score-cutting blade? (is the festool saw good enough to justify it's ludicrous price?)

If you use a decent blade in your saw and makesure all the internal edges are face up on the table a few chips won't show on the finished job ie the chips will be on the same face as the pocket screw holes.

:

What is the conventional way of attaching shelves when using MFC - normally i have used 'haunched' dado's cut with a router - but i imagine dado's will weaken 18mm MFC too much (i have never wished i had made a shelf adjustable)

A dado will weaken the MFC and allow moisture to enter, go for 5mm holes with metal pegs

 

[Mcluma]

Nice structured answer JasonB

 

[Lee Brubaker]

George:

Just a update on Danny Proulx who as you mentioned was a widely followed author & cabinet maker here in Canada. Unfortunately last fall while attending a woodshow, Danny suddenly collapsed & died. He participated on the Canadian Woodworking Magazine Forum & we all miss him.

Lee

 

[Paul Chapman]

Hi Lee,

That's very sad news about Danny. I have one of his books on kitchens and it's very good.

Paul

 

[SimonA]

I have MFC carcase's with granite worktops and they hold it with no problems.....

I've been looking to get a hold of a couple of Danny Proulx books....my I ask where and how you guys bought yours?

Cheers.

SimonA

 

[Paul Chapman]

I've been looking to get a hold of a couple of Danny Proulx books....my I ask where and how you guys bought yours?

I think I got mine in Bookends in Guildford. I sometimes have a look in there if I'm passing - they sell off books cheaply (usually half-price or less) and you can often pick up a few bargains - the sort of books that you would like to have but they are just too expensive at the normal price :wink:

Paul

 

[George_N]

my I ask where and how you guys bought yours?

Cheers.

SimonA

Amazon, either new or "pre-owned".

cheers

George

 

[George_N]

George:

Just a update on Danny Proulx who as you mentioned was a widely followed author & cabinet maker here in Canada. Unfortunately last fall while attending a woodshow, Danny suddenly collapsed & died. He participated on the Canadian Woodworking Magazine Forum & we all miss him.

Lee

That is sad news about Danny Proulx. As a novice cabinetmaker I have found his books to be very useful.

George

 

[sean_in_limerick]

i ordered his book yesterday - sad news indeed

 

[engineer one]

sean
it is amazing what mfc can bear, have built a number of strange devices
over the years, and they were all tough to break apart.

i have used biscuits and normal chipboard screws, but make sure you
put the iron on on the bottom surfaces too, to stop water wicking up.

i often think it is better to make separate plinths, so you can get that properly flat and level, have enough kick space, and ensure that the mfc
is properly supported. often looks pretty good painted black to make the
cupboards above look a little less ponderous.

as for cutting the mfc i have had good luck with sharp cmt blades in my dewalt, minimum break out.

the way that the trade make them is often of value.

couple of questions, are your walls straight flat and level, otherwise you need to kind of scribe each back, or overhang the top at the back,
and are you sure about granite. it really is a pain in the ar*e for most
things in the kitchen, you really only need a small area for pastry making
otherwise it presents many problems including chipping, and breakages.

i would make a u shaped box, bottom shelf, two side in mfc,
then at the top a front rail of mfc, behind it a 4x1 horizontally to support
the top, and a similar piece at the rear, but vertical.
if your services like water and electricity are proud of the wall, you need
a space of up to two inches between the wall and the back to allow access.

i always find it better to sort the kitchen sink unit first, get that working and leak free then move sideways from that. great to get access to the
back of that easily, and later to have clean hands.

think about access after you have installed the kitchen, can you easily
get to the pipes, cables, waste and plugs. if not re-plan it.

the backs should be about 8m as has been suggested, but you might want to do it in three pieces, with the middle bit screwed in from the front to allow later access.

another reason for making a plinth unit then the cabinet on top is to allow
for ease of making the face frames stay straight and level across the number of units. much easier to level one unit than all of them.


indeed sad news about danny, have you tried gmc for the book,
or stobart davies, who often put inserts in the mags?

paul :wink:

 

[Scrit]

I often think it is better to make separate plinths, so you can get that properly flat and level, have enough kick space, and ensure that the MFC is properly supported. often looks pretty good painted black to make the cupboards above look a little less ponderous.

I would suggest not making a plinth at all. Support your carcasses on adjuster feet as they will allow you to even out any variations on the floor (an they almost all vary a bit). They will also allow you to clip on a cover which will allow (limited) access beneath the carcasses in the event of a flood, etc. Make sure that the feet support the underside of the carcasse sides as this will help support the weight of heavy worktops such as granite or concrete.

To add to the earlier comments, if you are putting in granite get the supplier to template and fit it - the stuff weighs a ton and if you drop it........ #-o The granite boys will generally scribe your wall to match their worktop - much easier - and if the templating is wrong, it's their problem!

Services at the back of carcasses need a 50mm space - the largest waste you'll normally see is a 40mm so 50mm space gives you room to manouvre. Normal carcass depth is 570mm, front to rear, with a base carcass height of 720mm (uppers are 575/720 as a rule). Stick to the "standard" widths of 300 / 400 / 450 (dish washers) / 500 / 600/ 800 / 1000mm if you are going to use standard or bought-in wirework, although custom sizes can look a lot better. Hidden exposed edges can be sealed with D3 (exterior grade) PVA glue and the face frame construction will effectively hide any slightly raggy edges with the sole exception of the cabinet backs, although I'd seal an chip out as well to prevent water ingress.

Finally remember that if you are going face frame that almost all European hardware is designed for System 32 (frameless) carcasses and that to accommodate face frames you'll need to "jack-up" hinge plates, drawer runners, etc on packers to get them to work with the face frames. This in turn makes it difficult to install backs which can be removed from the front of the carcass for access to services (one of my pet projects). Personally I'd just buy the boxes in and make the face frames if it weren't for the fact that one of the things I make is MFC carcasses.....

Scrit

 

[paulm]

We have had granite worktops in our kitchen for a good few years now and they are totally practical, no need to worry about putting hot pans or dishes on them, no water stains and no problem at all with chipping or damage generally. Wouldn't view them as at all fragile or delicate !

Like Scrit says though definately wouldn't try fitting them myself its a job for the pro's !

Cheers, Paul.

 

[Scrit]

We have had granite worktops in our kitchen for a good few years now and they are totally practical, no need to worry about putting hot pans or dishes on them, no water stains and no problem at all with chipping or damage generally. Wouldn't view them as at all fragile or delicate !

From experience thare are only two things they don't like - having cast-iron pans dropped on the edges, which DOES chip them and having hot oil/fat spilled on them in quantity (such as an overflowing chip pan) which can leave a permanent oil mark or "shadow". What has always surprised me about granites is that they all appear to be slightly permeable. A proficient installer will seal the granite to considerably reduce the likelhood of this happening.

Scrit

 

[jasonB]

Granite is about the most bomb proof worktop, any surface will get damaged if you drop a big object onto it.

Most oil can be got out with a paultice type cleaner.

The other thing to watch is citric acid, don't leave a cut lemon on the worktop overnight. And if the lady of the house has a big diamond ring thay can put a scratch into the surface but if she's got that sort of money she can afford to get a man in with his Flex ROS

Jason

 

[Scrit]

The oil comment is because I have one customer in particiuar who had me pull-out a section of her solid beech worktop a few years back and replaced it with granite. Her teenagers then proceeded to dump an overflowing chip pan on it a couple of times and the granite guys never have managed to get the mark out, despite at least 3 visits, but I have to say it's a rare occurrence. She's also the one with the chips in the granite edges where Le Creuset pans have been dropped on the edges several times. Maybe it's just them - I've been back a couple of times to sand-out scorch marks in the beech (despite having supplied trivets) and they even broke their Belfast sink last year........ Going back at the end of the summer to take out the granite and re-instate the beech. :roll:

Jason, have you ever tried polishing out scratched with a Fein? Just wondered if it's worth getting the kit.

Scrit

 

[engineer one]

have to say my experience with granite is more prosaic,
we used it for grave stones, and later fireplaces, where i guess it
might be easier to chip them, and see weather damage.

but i guess like all things, this depends upon how you use it,
and to an extent what the kids are like in the kitchen :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

but certainly scrit has got it sorted on dimensions etc.

but quite why he makes cabinets that he could buy in???????? :twisted:

paul :wink:

 

[Scrit]

....but quite why he makes cabinets that he could buy in???????? :twisted:

None-standard sizes, special cabinets (like the side on washing machine "hutch" I'm just doing in veneered chipboard, that sort of thing is difficult to buy-in and get delivered in under 6 weeks...... Standards, however, I generally do buy-in because I can earn more installing them these days than making them. Simple economics. :wink:

Scrit