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Navigating the Chip Extractor Jungle

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Emstuv

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With the arrival of the P/T (107PT) and soon table saw and band saw, the necessity for a chip extractor is evident. For the mitre, sanding, router etc I have a couple of shop-vacs that are used.

The maximum length of 100 mm pipe/hose that will be used is ~7 m (if I make a duct system). I was planing on placing the extractor in the "attic" of the garage to avoid taking up floor space and activate via remote. If I place it on the garage floor, then I'll just wheel it around.

The question is which one? I will only be running one machine at a time, so that should cut down on the size of motor required (and cost). What I have available here (Norway) that won't require me to remove a kidney or wait 3 months to get :

- Axminster AC82E
- Axminster AT50E
- RP CX2500
- RP CX3000
- JET DC1100A (expensive)

I suppose I can order directly from Axi aswell as they don't weigh to much.

Any recommendations will be greatly appreciated.
 

Inspector

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You shouldn't use 4" ducting . It can only move at most 425 CFM (12 cubic meter per minute) with the average dust collector. You need 1000 CFM (28 cubic meters) to capture the sub-micron dust at the machine. You can't see it but it goes deep into your respiratory system. To flow 1000 CFM you need 6" ducting.

Since most DC's sold exaggerate the flow ratings by close to double of what they will actually produce you need to look for machines of at least 2hp with 3hp or more (13 inch or close to it diameter fan) preferred with cartridge filters. Locating the DC in another room is a good idea because you don't have to breath dust from any leaks or what gets through the filters. Try to use as little flex hose as you can because it has the equivalent drag to two to three times that of ducting. A 3 meter hose can equal up to 9 meters of pipe.

Here is a long read on dust collection that is worth the read. http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm

Pete
 

sunnybob

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Dust extraction threads are becoming like sharpening threads. :roll:
Everybody has a different system to everybody else, and they all think theirs is the best. :shock:
Be prepared for pages and pages of answers, all of them different. =D>
 

SammyQ

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NuMatic is NOT the only answer!!

Camvacs are too loud!!


There, that should bring out the trolls...popcorn phil??

Sam
 

Trevanion

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I would say the first Axminster machine on your list would be a good selection for a PT, so long as the planer extraction chute is well designed and it "throws" the shavings properly you don't need quite so much extraction power to pull them along. When it comes to the finer dust from a table saw or band saw you do require a little more airflow to pull the dust along, but I would assume that Axminster one would be good enough for occasional use on the two, but if you were using them day in day out I would recommend looking at a separate LVHP system for the BS/TS.

High Volume Low Pressure HVLP(Chip extractors): Heavier shavings from moulders and planers.

Low Volume High Pressure LVHP(Shopvacs, Hoovers, NuMatics): Fine dust from saws.
 

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Emstuv":2cfxjnt7 said:
So basically none on the list are any good?
I didn't look at any of them when I posted because I didn't want to search them all out, and now that I have I have too say sadly no.

At least 2 specify 30 micron filter bags and the others don't specify anything. I had a 3 hp DC once that came with 30 micron bags and every time it was turned on a cloud of dust came through the bags and that was what I could see. It was actually making the dust problem worse because the impeller chopped the dust into smaller particles as they went through. There is a good reason they are called dust pumps by people. So I got a set of four 1 micron bags, 2 on top and 2 below the collector rings, no plastic bags. While better they still puffed a little when started.

One and one and a half horse powered ones just don't move enough air to get the fine dust much less the bigger stuff and all the ones you are looking at are in that range.

You can get whatever you like but wear a respirator when in the shop and don't take it off unless you get a particle detector to verify the dust levels are safe. They can be had for about $100 or less. Dust collection is one of the most misunderstood parts of a home workshop. Do it right and you and your family will be healthier. Do it wrong and it can be bad for you and them. You can cut your finger with a dull chisel and heal up but the lungs are not the same. (That was my little dig at sharpening threads. ;) )

Pete
 

MikeJhn

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The Axminster AT50E specifies 1 micron filtering due to its pleated paper filter, but I would think at 1000m3/hr the suction for a planner thicknesser would be marginal, I personally have a 2000m3/hr chip extractor with a pleated paper filter there is no puff on start up and the atmosphere looks very clear when shinning a torch into the ceiling void, I am sure some small particles escape, but I can't see them (cue the response it's those that do the damage).
 

Emstuv

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Whenever I am sanding (whether by hand or machine hooked up to Festool CTS) I wear a respirator. The same goes for all cutting in MDF. The track and mitre saw are hooked up to shop vacs and do a fair job of removing dust, some chips remain.

I have considered a particle counter, similar to the one Peter Millard had a video about.

If one then avoids the chip extractors that have the cloth bags and shoot for the pleated filters, it should then reduce the dust (given ample ID on the hoses used).

This is also an interesting read by Matthias Wandel, Matthias Wandel.
 

Emstuv

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So then that leaves me with getting a big whooping extractor for the P/T, or a bandsaw and a smaller chip extractor.....hmmmm.
 

Trevanion

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Emstuv":1w7ewbxf said:
So then that leaves me with getting a big whooping extractor for the P/T, or a bandsaw and a smaller chip extractor.....hmmmm.
You don’t need a big extractor for a PT, 1.5 HP is ample. The only thing is you’ll be changing bags out quite often if you’re doing a lot of planing. Also you don’t need a cartridge filter for a PT as the shavings will just clog it, a cloth bag is fine because there is hardly any fine dust, just coarse shavings.

I have a 1hp 100mm cheap and cheerful sealey extractor hooked up to a 12” thicknesser often enough and it doesn’t struggle at all with the volume of shavings.
 

woodbloke66

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SammyQ":26lnivrw said:
Camvacs are too loud!!

Sam
No they're not Sam, not if you stick a couple of hoses in the output ports on top of the drum and then channel the other end(s) outside or under a suspended workshop floor. Quiet as a church mouse then :lol:; if not Concorde on full reheat is only moderately louder - Rob
 

SammyQ

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SammyQ wrote:

Camvacs are too loud!!

Sam

No they're not Sam, not if you stick a couple of hoses in the output ports on top of the drum and then channel the other end(s) outside or under a suspended workshop floor. Quiet as a church mouse then :lol:; if not Concorde on full reheat is only moderately louder - Rob
Good stuff Rob, nice tip! You'd only just acquired yours when I saw/heard it, and in naked form, it was LOUD to me. :D

I must say, I have the same reservations about most derived 'vacuum-on-steroids' types. The three that I have had, all steel sheet collection cannisters, have all been Bongo Drum Bands, looking for a protest march to play at. Wrapping them in old Karrimat helps, but the motor is at the top and difficult to sound suppress without overheating it.

Still, it is in turn better to be slightly deafened than suffocated. :(

Sam
 

woodbloke66

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SammyQ":lotqv116 said:
Good stuff Rob, nice tip! You'd only just acquired yours when I saw/heard it, and in naked form, it was LOUD to me. :D

I must say, I have the same reservations about most derived 'vacuum-on-steroids' types. The three that I have had, all steel sheet collection cannisters, have all been Bongo Drum Bands, looking for a protest march to play at. Wrapping them in old Karrimat helps, but the motor is at the top and difficult to sound suppress without overheating it.

Still, it is in turn better to be slightly deafened than suffocated. :(

Sam
This is a fully recognised Camvac tip Sam and the hoses are (or were) supplied by the same company. Agreed, without them fitted a Camvac makes a hell of a racket (twin brush motors) but the addition of a pair of hoses channels most of the din away. I've been running mine like this for years with no overheating problems - Rob
 

SammyQ

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Sounds(!!) good, Rob. I think I will look into adapting the camvac hoses for the Record 'dalek', 'cos I am moving my theatre of operations inside instead of under a lean-to, where it has been for 20 years. Any suppression will make my ears grateful.

Thanks, Sam.
 

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Emstuv here is a link to a company in Germany. They have a variety of machines. If the attic air doesn't recirculate back into the shop then the bag filters would be good enough. If the air does come back into the shop or other living spaces then add the cartridge filters to the units. https://www.holzmann-maschinen.at/EN/pr ... ector-1599

This one https://www.holzmann-maschinen.at/EN/dust-collector-94 is a 3hp machine and is better than this one https://www.holzmann-maschinen.at/EN/du ... -insert-92 because the airflow through it is more efficient.

If you have to go smaller because of power size then this one https://www.holzmann-maschinen.at/EN/du ... ector-8021 is a 2hp machined and is better than this one https://www.holzmann-maschinen.at/EN/du ... -insert-88 for the same reason as above. Better airflow through the machine.

These machines are also sold through the German Amazon site so perhaps it is eligible for free shipping.

They seem to be one of the few that sell motor/impeller separately and if they have a 230V one or the 400V one can be converted you can build the cyclone to fit in the Bill Pentz link I posted earlier in the thread and drop the dust into a barrel that could be located downstairs while the rest is upstairs. The cyclone could be mounted on an angle following the roofline if height is an issue. If the motor is available in a 230V three phase you can get a Variable Frequency Drive (VFD) from China, couple hundred US delivered, and run the DC to 60 hertz like we have here and get 20% more flow through it. You can also slow it down to reduce noise when collecting from something like a scroll saw or just to scrub the air in the room for a while after machining wood.

Remember the airflow claims are higher than you can achieve in the shop. They get the number by using a short test duct in front of the impeller and without any bags or filters or hose/duct to them. They take a single reading in the centre of the airstream where it is the highest. They do not take any readings across the duct at intervals to where the airflow is slower and average the number. When the ducts and filters are on you have less airflow.

Ditch the 2 or 3 way 4" to 6" splitters and use 6" duct all the way to the machine. Open the machine connections if you can for better flow through them. If you can't/won't then have a second duct by the machine to draw in any dust that escapes the machine.

I'll make this my last post pushing you to bigger machines so you can "breath easier" if you are tired of reading them. ;)

Pete
 
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