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Ttrees

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Hello Val, welcome to the forum.
I'll admit that I only glossed over your post, as it is a few different posts in one.
Obviously study on getting a workshop sorted first, can't do much without one.

Once you get one, you need little to get going.
I would suggest getting a big bandsaw 20" and 200kg for about five or six hundred pounds.
Three phase obviously with a dual voltage motor (look for 240v or triangle/delta symbol on motor.
One this size will do what a tablesaw can, but more suited to cutting veneers,
and that would likely be the most expensive tool you would need.
Anything smaller and lighter won't cut the mustard, maybe something like a Hammer N4400 but that would be the limit of how small you could get away with.

I got my pillar drill for 40 pounds, its a solid yoke which needs a little TLC
and about 25 quid in parts, but capable.
A sound bench is the first thing you would need, and with a few old hand planes, cheap chisels, some new cheap but good quality marking equipment, and a hone or two for sharpening would be a fairly complete setup.

You might want a router/ laminate trimmer or two for truss rods and pickup cavities,
I won't advise, as I don't have much experience here.

I think a lot of those portable tools as dangerous and/or loud junk, and litter in the workshop,
I haven't a clue what you'd want a compressor for.
Regarding extractors for those noise makers is a gimmick
It will give you a false sense of security, when infact they let out the finest dust, which you don't see, but breath in.
Had a look again and you actually are looking to get a semi decent one...

I just think you are better off trying not to create so much dust in the first place,
Very important if you intend to use routers daily though.
Consumer cyclones aren't around very long, so you would struggle for years to find a deal on a used one.

Have a look at Paul Sellers and the kit he has.
Not that I agree with much of his methods, defiantly not,
but agree with him as a capable bandsaw being the best machine to have in the shop.
I bought my machine for 500 euros, (dual voltage motor)
and can run it from a domestic household plug, no need for 16 amp commando plugs.
A hundred quid VFD/inverter has capacitors which start your machine slowly to suit your supply,
and you've got a machine that will do a lot for you.
Forget most of the portable things,
Or don't let this be you!
Type in "my planer accident" on youtube

All the best
Tom
 

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Sachakins

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Re the cyclone, whoops duplicated, delete
 
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Sachakins

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Re the cyclone,
Don't know if Axminster Tools delivers or has out let where you are, but here's a link for these items?
Just the cyclone you can add to existing extractors, its around £115, and its the only steel one with 4" outlets i can think of.
View attachment 101231
Also this one you add a motor to.
View attachment 101232
 

sometimewoodworker

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Buy some hand tools and learn the basics of making joints first. Very bad idea to buy loads of machines before you have made anything.
I vehemently disagree with the first sentence. Had I followed that guide I would never have started woodworking. I started with power tools and have progressed to occasionally using hand tools.

The second sentence is correct. Buy the minimum tools needed to make the first project, BUT buy the best tools, don’t buy cheaper because you want the “set”. I am still using the quality tools I first started buying 50 year ago, are they as good as my most recent ones? No. Do they still do a great job? Yes. In fact my Elu router is still the best tool for some jobs, and my bandsaw is good enough for almost everything I need.

There are no Festool tools on the list, even in Ireland the resale value of them is close to, and in time exceeds, the new price, so you can always get your investment back if you don’t use them & while you do you have the best experience of woodworking.

YMMV
 

sometimewoodworker

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Buy some hand tools and learn the basics of making joints first. Very bad idea to buy loads of machines before you have made anything.
I vehemently disagree with the first sentence. Had I followed that guide I would never have started woodworking. I started with power tools and have progressed to occasionally using hand tools.

The second sentence is correct. Buy the minimum tools needed to make the first project, BUT buy the best tools, don’t buy cheaper because you want the “set”. I am still using the quality tools I first started buying 50 year ago, are they as good as my most recent ones? No. Do they still do a great job? Yes. In fact my Elu router is still the best tool for some jobs, and my bandsaw is good enough for almost everything I need.

There are no Festool tools on the list, even in Ireland the resale value of them is close to, and in time exceeds, the new price, so you can always get your investment back if you don’t use them & while you do you have the best experience of woodworking.

YMMV
 

Sachakins

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Re wall insulation and boarding.
If you can insulate and keeping air gap it will greatly improve accoustic as well as heat insulation. Also boarding out gives tremendous solid and smooth mounting space, great for tool storage, french cleat mounting, I find it better than before I boarded it.
Also because I did it after using shop for a while it was really awkward, having to shift and move everything 2 or 3 times and rewire etc.

The cyclone massively reduces dust getting to the filter bags in the first place, the only ways I know of improving dust collection on the HVLP systems is making them 2 or 3 stage filtration systems, which is adding cyclone, then change out the cloth bag for a cannister filter which are expensive and large, hence why I have put mine into lean-to outside with cyclone, albeit a cheap 2" in/outlet, home made shop across type build.

Can't comment on that air filtration system, I like the diy box fan approach. See Izzy Swan comparison here on YouTube
.

Also, have you sorted adequate power supply feed to shed/workshop , its not so much what you run, but its surprising what size current some motors draw on start up, its often surge current that can trip sensitive rcds on fuseboard. I had my supply rated and installed by a electrical contractor, complete with secondary consumer unit in workshop. Yes its not cheap, but I'd rather spend on safety than risk it in this instance.

Don't forget to factor in PPE costs, ie for turning, using a powered ventilation face shield does not come cheap, £220 plus (see trend powercap JSP etc)

Have wood be happy, have big wood make others happy :cool:😲
 

Robbo60

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As an experienced beginner, I think that you are planning a massive investment (well it would be to me) into something you have never really spent a lot of time doing? - will you definitely enjoy it? The log cabin could be utilised as something else but spending thousands of £ on kit in one go seems a bit rash to me. I would suggest a table saw or track saw (opinions differ), Mitre saw, router that can fit in table, circular saw for ripping sheets into manageable sizes, Jig saw. Hand tools - decent set of chisels, couple of planes, jack and block, couple of saws, first, second fix. Oh and lots and lots of clamps
I hear what you are saying about training, but you stated you were handy so watch videos, start with cheap planed soft wood and practice making some joints. So satisfying when they work.
Good luck and I hope you enjoy
 

Val

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I vehemently disagree with the first sentence. Had I followed that guide I would never have started woodworking. I started with power tools and have progressed to occasionally using hand tools.

The second sentence is correct. Buy the minimum tools needed to make the first project, BUT buy the best tools, don’t buy cheaper because you want the “set”. I am still using the quality tools I first started buying 50 year ago, are they as good as my most recent ones? No. Do they still do a great job? Yes. In fact my Elu router is still the best tool for some jobs, and my bandsaw is good enough for almost everything I need.

There are no Festool tools on the list, even in Ireland the resale value of them is close to, and in time exceeds, the new price, so you can always get your investment back if you don’t use them & while you do you have the best experience of woodworking.

YMMV
Thanks for sharing your experience.
In the past, when I started new hobbies, I've always kept in mind that if the objective is ultimately to go from 'A' to 'Z', there's little point in putting petrol in the tank just enough to get to 'L' and then see what happens.
I also totally agree that you should always buy the best tools you can get, as I believe that buying cheap is often buying twice. Of course there are bargains to be had, and no one wants to spend more than necessary, so that's why I was asking for advice about choosing from a series of tools that I have identified based on their characteristics, price and availability.
 

Val

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Re wall insulation and boarding.
If you can insulate and keeping air gap it will greatly improve accoustic as well as heat insulation. Also boarding out gives tremendous solid and smooth mounting space, great for tool storage, french cleat mounting, I find it better than before I boarded it.
Also because I did it after using shop for a while it was really awkward, having to shift and move everything 2 or 3 times and rewire etc.

The cyclone massively reduces dust getting to the filter bags in the first place, the only ways I know of improving dust collection on the HVLP systems is making them 2 or 3 stage filtration systems, which is adding cyclone, then change out the cloth bag for a cannister filter which are expensive and large, hence why I have put mine into lean-to outside with cyclone, albeit a cheap 2" in/outlet, home made shop across type build.

Can't comment on that air filtration system, I like the diy box fan approach. See Izzy Swan comparison here on YouTube
.

Also, have you sorted adequate power supply feed to shed/workshop , its not so much what you run, but its surprising what size current some motors draw on start up, its often surge current that can trip sensitive rcds on fuseboard. I had my supply rated and installed by a electrical contractor, complete with secondary consumer unit in workshop. Yes its not cheap, but I'd rather spend on safety than risk it in this instance.

Don't forget to factor in PPE costs, ie for turning, using a powered ventilation face shield does not come cheap, £220 plus (see trend powercap JSP etc)

Have wood be happy, have big wood make others happy :cool:😲
I have been thinking about wall insulations, not for the heat but mostly for sound. Since the cabin is not going to be very large I wanted to see how bad the sound situation was from the outside before committing to attach studs to the wall (with slotted brackets to allow for expansion of course) and lose 35-45mm on each side between air gap and insulation/plywood sheets.

I love the french cleat mounting system, a while ago had a look at Ben Tardif's youtube channel and I think he did wonders with it. If I go for insulation and boards on the wall I think I'll be using this system.

With regard to wiring, I already planned to have separate breakout box with 5 16-20A circuits (one for each big machine I intend to buy), plus one for all the power outlets and one for ceiling lights. All the tools I've listed have normal plugs, no 16A commando-style plugs. I'll be bringing the current directly from the main box above the meter in my house.

In terms of safety, I have already a couple of adjustable half-face masks with >0.3 micron filtration and plenty of backup filters.
 
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Sachakins

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I have been thinking about wall insulations, not for the heat but mostly for sound. Since the cabin is not going to be very large I wanted to see how bad the sound situation was from the outside before committing to attach studs to the wall (with slotted brackets to allow for expansion of course) and lose 35-45mm on each side between air gap and insulation/plywood sheets.

I love the french cleat mounting system, a while ago had a look at Ben Tardif's youtube channel and I think he did wonders with it. If I go for insulation and boards on the wall I think I'll be using this system.

With regard to wiring, I already planned to have separate breakout box with 5 16-20A circuits (one for each big machine I intend to buy), plus one for all the power outlets and one for ceiling lights. All the tools I've listed have normal plugs, no 16A commando-style plugs. I'll be bringing the current directly from the main box above the meter in my house.

In terms of safety, I have already a couple of adjustable half-face masks with >0.3 micron filtration and plenty of backup filters.
This guy is amazing with french cleats, he has about 120 ideas already,
 

Val

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As an experienced beginner, I think that you are planning a massive investment (well it would be to me) into something you have never really spent a lot of time doing? - will you definitely enjoy it? The log cabin could be utilised as something else but spending thousands of £ on kit in one go seems a bit rash to me. I would suggest a table saw or track saw (opinions differ), Mitre saw, router that can fit in table, circular saw for ripping sheets into manageable sizes, Jig saw. Hand tools - decent set of chisels, couple of planes, jack and block, couple of saws, first, second fix. Oh and lots and lots of clamps
I hear what you are saying about training, but you stated you were handy so watch videos, start with cheap planed soft wood and practice making some joints. So satisfying when they work.
Good luck and I hope you enjoy
Thanks for the suggestion, Robbo, I'll have a look at the tools you mentioned. I have always been into DIY and literally since I was a child I dreamed of one day owning a small workshop where to spend my time to unwind after work. I have saved enough to properly start doing it and I am now ready to commit.
Of course there is a chance I will suddenly discover that I'm into all craft but not woodcraft, and in that case I will just take the hit and put the tools for sale and use the log cabin as a gym, a bbq/pizza hut or a summer house. Or maybe I can dust off all my mechanic tools and build a supermono track bike from scraps like I used to do in the olden days!
 

Exluthier

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Buy some hand tools and learn the basics of making joints first. Very bad idea to buy loads of machines before you have made anything.

Log cabins are somewhat notorious for rotting and letting damp in.

Invest in some training.

Spend money on wood.
AJB is right; you won’t get far with musical instruments without some practise with hand tools, especially (as my worn out thumbs prove) with scrapers and hand planes, and some good chisels / gouges.
 

AJB Temple

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Part of the reason why I said right at the outset, get some skills with hand tools first, is that people often do what you are proposing and launch in to buying power tools and get the wrong stuff. Whilst you are getting your act together with shed, training (via the tube for now) and so on, you can be getting skilled with timber knowledge, setting out (lots of pitfalls) and making basic joints. Some hand tool skill is essential unless perhaps you are just churning out sheet cabinets (which you say you will not make).

When I started, it was making guitars with hand tools (except for my dad's electric drill). When I started doing serious woodwork with large outlays in wood (making a kitchen for a farmhouse we had bought, oak framing, floors, doors) I bought some top quality power tools and a chop saw. Elu. Still have them. Still work.

However, when I started buying machinery, despite being experienced as a woodworker, I bought the wrong machines. This was partly because I had too small a budget and did not think I could justify pro level gear. I have ended up replacing band saw, table saw, extraction system. I need to replace my 10" planer / thicknesser ideally, and get a spindle moulder as my router table is not ideal. The trade belt sander I bought is too small and so is the 12" disc sander. I wish I had bought a sanding thicknesser when they were much cheaper.

It is a big mistake IMO to buy all your machines in one go until you have a feel for your processes for the kind of things you will make. If I had my time over again, I would buy less kit, but bigger and much better quality. Especially the planer / thicknesser. Same would apply to a table saw, but my workshop is not big enough for a serous professional one (and neither will yours be).
 

Val

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AJB is right; you won’t get far with musical instruments without some practise with hand tools, especially (as my worn out thumbs prove) with scrapers and hand planes, and some good chisels / gouges.
As I stated several times in this thread (but I appreciate that it is long so it could've been missed) I do plan to use hand tools like scrapers, chisels, gouges, etc. I just plan to use them only when convenient and/or appropriate. E.g. when building the body of an electric bass, I plan to use a thicknesser, a drum sander, a spindle sander and a router to achieve the results I would achieve with hand planes and manual sanding.
Of course I will not use the table saw to slot the fretboard :D

However, as I said before lutherie is going to be the next step for me, at the moment I want to focus on a nice garden bench.
 

Val

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Ok, based on the general consesus that I should only buy the tools I need to build the benches/bases/cleats and to work on my first project (garden bench), and given that I will only buy squared wood, I think I will need the following on top of what I already have:

- a decent table saw
- a decent mitre saw
- a good orbital sander
- a good dust collection system
- a really good set of planes
- a really good set of chisels/gouges
- a really good set of hand saws

As time is the most valuable currency I have, the three power tool I indicated will allow me to do cross/rip cuts, even at an angle, with ease and speed. I have excluded a track saw as I might want to do rip cuts of thin pieces of wood without hassle or do repeated precise cuts.

Questions now are:
  • Is buying a flipover saw to combine both table and mitre saw in one piece I can easily integrate in my DIY bench an acceptable compromise? If so, which of the two models I have indicated you suggest? Any other models?
  • If I should go for separate portable table and mitre saw, which of the models I indicated should I buy? Any other models?
  • Which of the dust collection system is appropriate for this setup, and future-proof enough for a standing bandsaw, drum sander, thicknesser and planer? I will carry it from machine to machine with a short 2m 100mm diameter hose.
  • Would you be able to suggest a good set/brand/type of hand saws, chisels, gouges and hand planes that I can use for the aforementioned projects? If possible I would be happy to get some suggestions with regard to what type of sharpening stones I should use.
Thanks everyone!
 

sometimewoodworker

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Is buying a flipover saw to combine both table and mitre saw in one piece I can easily integrate in my DIY bench an acceptable compromise?
In my opinion, no. If you are dead set on a table saw remember that you need about two and a half times the length of the longest piece you intend to cut so if you attempt to rip a standard sheet you need about 6 metres clear. You can move it table saw outside to get the clearance you need.

My opinion is that in a small workshop a table saw is not a great choice. My reasons are that to get a quality machine it’s a lot of money and as mentioned it needs a lot of space. If you want to cut short lengths it’s a reasonable choice but then you either need a wood yard that will cut your material down or a different way to do that.

With my track saw I make repeated precise cuts. My french cleats are about 70mm x 2440mm all cut with it, I needed about 2.7 metres for the cuts. For small or short pieces like small box parts I do use an “antique“ table saw that has a tiny table and no tilt function.

Foe hand saws try a couple of Japanese pull saws, even I can use them, they cut quickly and accurately.

For sharpening I use Shapton water stones with a diamond flattened plate and a veritas jig, again for an occasional user they make it difficult to go wrong. They are quite expensive though. There are many ways to sharpen so I don’t advise just inform.

For the sander don‘t get a battery one, you need dust extraction so the battery tool as few if any advantages, I have Festool sanders and they are superb, the dust collection means I don’t need a dust mask when using them.
 
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AJB Temple

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Jerome ^ is right. The reason why I only have a small (and not very good) table saw, is that a proper one requires literally a shed load of space. It is very difficult to handle sheet good or long planks, for ripping down, unless you have a lot of clear space around you. I would far rather have a full sized sheet bench and a tracksaw, for sheet goods etc, than struggle manoeuvring around a table saw in a small workshop. A tracksaw will do most things a table saw will do. I would pick a bandsaw ahead of a tablesaw any day for the kind of furniture making things I do.

Don't fixate on "sets". Buy good quality tools in the sizes you need.
 

Val

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In my opinion, no. If you are dead set on a table saw remember that you need about two and a half times the length of the longest piece you intend to cut so if you attempt to rip a standard sheet you need about 6 metres clear. You can move it table saw outside to get the clearance you need.

My opinion is that in a small workshop a table saw is not a great choice. My reasons are that to get a quality machine it’s a lot of money and as mentioned it needs a lot of space. If you want to cut short lengths it’s a reasonable choice but then you either need a wood yard that will cut your material down or a different way to do that.

With my track saw I make repeated precise cuts. My french cleats are about 70mm x 2440mm all cut with it, I needed about 2.7 metres for the cuts. For small or short pieces like small box parts I do use an “antique“ table saw that has a tiny table and no tilt function.
That's a great insight, thank you. The cabin has wide double doors so I was planning, when sawing 2.44m long sheets, to move the base with the saw next to the central workbench (they would have the same height), move the dust collector out of the way and load the sheet from the outside using two wide roller stands on the two sides. This way I would have 3m in front of the table saw, and only 1.5m outside. Do you think this is easier said than done? I've never done this before so it's a genuine question.
With regard to the track saw, do you use a jig to make repeatable precise cuts? in your opinion, how precise is cut made with a plunge/track saw and a series of tracks joined with a connector compared to a table saw like for example the MAKITA 2704N or the DEWALT DWE7492 I was considering?
Would the MAKITA MLT100N, which doesn't have table extensions for 4'x8' sheets, be a better choice (also in terms of money) since I'm going to use it embedded in a base?
 
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Peterm1000

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Loads of thoughts here...

- My workshop is 4 metres X 4 metres. Mobile bases are your friend here. Everything is on them. You will find 5 X 4 metres fairly small.
- French cleats are fantastically easy & flexible
- If you can manage an outdoor extractor setup it removes dust to outside and removes a noisy and large machine from a small workshop. Amazon Alexa & a smart plug will enable you to turn it on and off without a dedicated switch
- Good luck putting a full size sheet through a table say that is not a panel saw. Even with 2 people you will be very lucky to make accurate cuts.
- Good luck cutting a full size sheet in a 5 x 4 metre workshop. It will be very tight.
- Routers take real skill to use and still terrify me (I don't have real skill!). There is no faster way to balls up a piece of work I think.
- Everyone has a different view on what you need based on the woodwork they do.
- Most cheap tools tend not to work as well. That can lead to poor results and they break quickly. I have found that to be particularly true with the bigger tools like table saws, bandsaws and mitre saws - buy the VERY best that you can afford.
- Buying the tools over time is part of the joy!
- There is something rather wonderful about using the 120 year old plane that belonged to my grandfather

My thought would be that you start with something easy and work up from there. You can do an awful lot with a track saw (or circular saw with a guide rail), a well set up sliding mitre saw, a biscuit jointer, a random orbit sander and few clamps.
 

billw

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BTW all these mentions of ripping sheet materials - if you read the OP's intro it really doesn't look like he'll be doing this ever. I'd skip a table saw as a result, especially since it doesn't look like he's doing a lot of repetitive work either so that's the other good reason to get a table saw.

Would a track saw do the job? Probably?
 
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