My new tropical aquarium setup.

[sunnybob]

I'm not familiar with that product, what exactly is it?
I'm not too keen on chemical wonder tablets, but the pet manufacturers LOVE to sell them to you.

Theres no hard and fast rule on numbers of fish, theres just too many variables.
Watch the fish. Are they feeding well? Are they alert and reacting to you putting food in the tank?
are their fins upright? All good signs.
Are the fins down, or ragged? are they not eating well? are there white spots on the bodies or fungus on the fins? All very BAD signs.

Keep checking the water quality. PH and DH are vital to keeping fish alive and well.
keep the filter running 24/7. When you do clean it DO NOT sterilise it, just wash the dirt out and put it back.

Change about a quarter of the water every couple weeks by syphoning out using a gravel cleaner like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5giSLq4mdv0

Make sure the new water is the same temp as the tank, and stir it well as you fill the bucket to help remove chlorine from the tap water.

You can make a superb gravel cleaner from a large plastic pop bottle if you cant find a shop one

The most important rule is to make any changes to the water SLOWLY.

 

[ColeyS1]

This is the side of the box

I feed them once every two days and they go beserk when the food goes in and eat it quickly.
I've got the hang of the gravel cleaner and no longer have mouthfuls of dirty tank water to get the siphon going. All the fish look alert and healthy . The clown doesn't really do much. It mainly stays in one place just wiggling away

The guppies dart around all over the place (possibly my 2nd favourite) and the tetras just mooch about slowly.

This one's my real favourite

Occasionally he'll put on a show, sucking off the front of the tank but doing it real quick all over the place.

Do you think I may have created a problem adding another 8 in one day ?
I'd love to add more fish to the tank,maybe something different if I've got the space.

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[sunnybob]

always worry about anything that has every other word in bold. Those tablets do EXACTLY what your filter is ALREADY doing. GET my DRIFT?

They might possibly be useful in a brand new tank if you wanted to dump a lot of fish in it the same day.
I would consider every other day food as not enough. If the food is gone in 1 minute flat they are starving. If the food is still around after 5 minutes, that would be too much at any one time.
I used to feed my shop tanks every day, and the show tank fish twice a day. then youll see them grow. But of course, that means more filter washing and water changing.
See what I mean about no hard and fast rule?

 

[ColeyS1]

always worry about anything that has every other word in bold. Those tablets do EXACTLY what your filter is ALREADY doing. GET my DRIFT?

They might possibly be useful in a brand new tank if you wanted to dump a lot of fish in it the same day.
I would consider every other day food as not enough. If the food is gone in 1 minute flat they are starving. If the food is still around after 5 minutes, that would be too much at any one time.
I used to feed my shop tanks every day, and the show tank fish twice a day. then youll see them grow. But of course, that means more filter washing and water changing.
See what I mean about no hard and fast rule?

Yeah, its not straight forward is it ! It's a lot to take in. I've just been researching and think I've got into a lot of bad habits. Truthfully I only change the water every 4 weeks (take out 35 litres) and I change the filters every five weeks. It has two little plastic trays of charcoal and I change them both. Just reading somewhere and it mentioned about not just taking the old out and putting the new in...?

I need to learn good habits again. I guess the more fish, the more strict I need to be with my routine. I'll increase it to once a day and see how they got on. Perhaps flakes one day and granules the next.

I just watched a video on YouTube and a guy with the same size tank had 50 fish and was mentioning getting more ! My tank looks empty in comparison.

Thanks



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[ColeyS1]

I've just reread all of this to see if stuff had already been mentioned before. A few memorable parts were 150 fish tanks , a fish that ate grapes and spat out the pips, and a longer tank being better than a tall tank so they can swim better.

I'm wondering if it might be a good choice to get an external filter. Depending on how many more fish I could fit, by the sound of it, it'll be more efficient at keeping the water clean ?

Just fed them earlier and all the food was gone in under 3 minutes. They must have been hungry because food day was tomorrow.


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[Phil Pascoe]

A few corydoras of some sort might be good - you haven't really got any bottom feeders, which help to hoover up bits and pieces. You really need to change charcoal filters if you decide they are necessary as they have only a mechanical effect after so long - sponges, ceramics ect. last indefinitely. As your tank matures you need less testing, fewer additives etc. I haven't kept anything demanding for ages and haven't done a water test in ten years - I doubt I've even still got the test gear. I'm not recommending you do this, just making a point.

 

[sunnybob]

I think you need to relax a little (thats what they are for, right? ) youre just a tad too regimented.
The correct approach is to realise that they are wild animals. Wild animals work on the feast or famine principle. If its there, they will eat it, because tomorrow maybe it wont be there.
So correct feeding is crucial to health.
Study the fish itself. Look at the belly, is it sunken? feed more. Is it extended? feed less (unless its a pregnant female of course). If there is a long string of half digested food trailing from its rear, starve for a day or two untill the belly looks healthy again.
They have a very clever stomach arrangement in that they can eat forever and not explode. Once the belly is full, the food just overflows and goes straight through. That helps them always have a full stomach on the day the food supply stops, to tide them over untill more does arrive.

Regarding overcrowding and filtering, Heres the overview;
You can put so many fish into a tank that they are all touching each other, and they will survive. PROVIDED the water they are in is clean of poisons.
Think of a large prison totally overcrowded with people as the fish, and the air inside the prison as the water. The people might not be happy crowded together, but as long as fresh air is available they will survive. If you close off the air and make it airtight thats the equivalent of letting the water go foul, and everything dies.

But you dont want them to just survive, you want them to be happy. So you adjust their surroundings to simulate their wild state.
Most fish (cichlids excepted, they are a special sub division) do not like being alone, because theres safety in numbers when a predator comes along. The smaller the fish, the more scared it is, and the more it will try to hide. So tetras, small rasbora's and barb's like to be in shoals and will show off much more.
Larger fish like clown loaches prefer a small amount of friends, but most of their life is spent under objects so not as much visual benefit to you if you buy more.

What I'm trying to get across is that a really good tank is a busy tank with new groups of fish wandering across every so often, but to make that happen you need to be flexible in feeding and stocking levels.
Filtering; (this is turning into a small book here),
Remember the prison analogy? the more prisoners in an enclosed space, the more windows you need to open to allow them to breathe, and the more cess pit emptying you have to do. The more fish you have, the more filtering needs to be done to stop them from being poisoned. You cant see water quality, thats why you have to test regularly at first untill you start to understand the fishes reactions to bad water. An external filter will GREATLY improve water quality. Its up to you to decide if you want that extra quality to allow you to put more fish in, or to give you longer between water changes.
NEVER completely change or wash ALL of the filter media at the same time. The filter is a biological purifier that takes a couple weeks to mature to full efficiency. Washing or replacing everything means your tank has just had all its windows closed ( I'm mixing metaphores, but hey) and your prisoners will start to die of CO2 poisoning.

as far as equipment goes, I'm more than 20 years out of date now, but EHEIM was the best of the filters back then. Hagen were catching up. i dont even know if those firms are still going. but buy big if youre going external.

 

[OscarG]

One thing to add, with the current heat wave, might want to keep an eye on the temp. The tank in my lounge got up to 33 deg C the other day. Having to close curtains during day and increase water changes just to try and keep the temp down.

 

[ColeyS1]

You might be right Bob about being a little too regimental with the fish. I just want to do the right thing by them so they live healthyly. With my dog it's easy to know how much to feed him. He has two capfulls and half a pouch of meat and the vet looks him over once a year and I always ask about his weight. With the fish it's different though. For example if it were 1 gram of food per fish that'd be easy to do. I will pay closer attention to how their bellys look now you mentioned it- thanks.

The only thing I never touch is the noodles. I thought by changing both the charcoal filters there would still be enough friendly bacteria in the noodles to not affect it too much. I never do a water and filter change at the same time.

If an external filter reduces the risk and cleans the water quicker, I think I'd be bonkers to not do it. I want to make a cupboard for the tank so would rather do the alterations now so I can allow it in the cupboard design.

Thanks for helping me with this [WINKING FACE]

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[ColeyS1]

A few corydoras of some sort might be good - you haven't really got any bottom feeders, which help to hoover up bits and pieces. You really need to change charcoal filters if you decide they are necessary as they have only a mechanical effect after so long - sponges, ceramics ect. last indefinitely. As your tank matures you need less testing, fewer additives etc. I haven't kept anything demanding for ages and haven't done a water test in ten years - I doubt I've even still got the test gear. I'm not recommending you do this, just making a point.

Ok Phil. I'll keep an eye on it this week, perhaps do a waterchange if it needs lowering. I'll see if the fish shop has any corydoras.
Cheers

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[ColeyS1]

One thing to add, with the current heat wave, might want to keep an eye on the temp. The tank in my lounge got up to 33 deg C the other day. Having to close curtains during day and increase water changes just to try and keep the temp down.

Yeah I noticed my temp raise to 28. I've tilted the blinds to try and reduce the sun's rays. I struggle with the heat myself and several times thought of getting aircon for the hot summer days- if it'd also help the fish be content .......lol

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[Phil Pascoe]

I always do a water change at the same time as a filter clean out - that's the water I use to rinse everything out. Don't wash anything in tap water. I use a product called Prime by Seachem to condition the new water - it's £30+ per litre, iirc, but it's used in such small amounts a litre would last you years. Obviously you can buy smaller bottles. I used to use a Hagen product which was equally good.

 

[sunnybob]

points mentioned'
carbon filter material; it starts off absorbing lots of harmful chemicals, but as Phil says, it eventually gets "full up". You can re-energise" the carbon by laying it out thin on a baking tray and cooking it (or in this heatwave, left out in the sun all day). but thats messy and stinky, so its rare to do it anymore because carbon is quite cheap to replace.

Test kits; again, as both I and Phil said, it becomes less neccessary as your experience grows, but I think its a mistake to never check, even if its just a goldfish, because they can get used to a gradual build up of poisons without showing too many signs.

Filter change; depends entirely on the amount of fish and the amount of food. More fish equals more food equals more maintenance. NEVER clean ALL of it at the same time.
Temperature;
now then, this is a BIGGIE. I hold my hand up and plead guilty to this a long long time ago. All the equipment manufacturers insist you need heaters that keep the temp to within a quarter degree.
Can any of them tell you where there is a wild river or stream that the temp does not fluctuate wildly throughout the year? Of course they cant.
Side break for another true story.
After selling our fish shop for a considerable sum of money, we took a year off work and had a holiday in the Maldives, seeing as how fish had paid for it, we wanted to see them in the wild.
This was in 1989, and to date I have not again spent that much money on a single holiday.
Anyway, seeing all those marines in the wild was an eye opener. We used to walk out in the lagoon and feed them bread rolls (what! no carefully balanced mega expensive vitamins?).

I found a family of clown fish with young on an anemone in only a foot of water, and i used to lay down and watch them with a swimming mask on. the male went potty trying to chase me away (it was at least 2" long). Anyway, thats the background set, heres the punch line.
As I laid there in only just over a foot of water, the tide rose enough for new water to flow over the reef into the lagoon, and it was SO COLD I shivered. Those "super delicate temp. sensitive marine fish" didnt even notice. they just carried on as usual, because that happened twice every day of their lives.
The ONLY reason temperature can cause problems to fish is that when the water temp rises, it becomes less able to hold oxygen, and fish DO need oxygen. If youre in a heat wave, shield the tank from direct sunlight, increase the air bubbles or surface water swirl if you dont have a seperate air pump, and the problem goes away.

Most tropicals are happy between (its been so long I have just had to look up F into C) 23 and 27c but they can withstand wide variances of that for short periods of time provided the change is instant.
As an example, going back to the 70's, nobody could get corydoras catfish to breed in captivity, they were all wild caught. then in the "winter of discontent" when the power was cut again and again due to miners strikes, suddenly hobbyists all over the UK found their corydoras started to breed without any encouragement. It was soon realised that their particular "trigger" was very cold water (20c or even a little less), which happens in the wild in the winter, but everyone had got so caught up in the stable temp idea that those conditions had never been tried.
With discus its the opposite and they like 30c.
The point I'm hammering home again and again is that no one rule fits all tanks.

i think I'm going to have to make this into a book. Hope its helping you.

 

[ColeyS1]

One of the tiny tetras was dead this morning. Did a water test and everything fine- also took a sample to the shop to test.
Just noticed one of the new guppies floating almost vertically, then suddenly swimming but alternating from the right way up, to then upside down. Is it best to remove it now or should I wait for the inevitable.
It is helping Bob.

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Edit- I removed it now. It was sinking to the bottom getting stuck in the plants. That's 2 out of the new 8 that have now died......

 

[sunnybob]

remove it. from that picture its already dead. You have to accept fish will die.
If a fish shows any major signs of illness, always remove it to protect the others.
Its up to you to decide whether to just kill it, or set up a small quarantine tank and try to cure it. That would depend on the value of the fish versus the cost of the tank, and also how soft your heart is 8)
1 or 2 small fish dead once in a while is not a cause for alarm, but any more and any more frequent is, and you need to start investigating.

I cant advise on actual remedies manufacturers because I'm so long out of touch, but tetra was always a good name. i would dose with a broad spectrum bactericide (bacteria will not show up on a normal test kit).
And get a bigger filter. :shock: =D>

 

[ColeyS1]

It's not the end of the world that a couple died. Here's what I think I learnt yesterday...or its finally sunk in.

Charcoal/carbon filters are useful for a few months on a new tank to help remove toxins or to remove medicine. Once the tank is established it'll look after itself with just noodles and sponge filters getting the occasional rinse in tank water.- Does that sound right ?

The guy down the shop has an external filter. He has two drawers of noodles and the 3rd is full of sponge- course medium and I think he said the white flossy one. All he said he needs to do is do the monthy water change and rinse the sponge in the tank water he's discarding.

I've had the tank for over 3 months now- would that be classed as established now?
If it were I could remove the carbon trays and treat with the medicine. There would be more room for extra noodles so perhaps an external one might not be necessary?

One thing that might not have helped was I had a power cut on Monday. After a power cut the led light flashs quite quickly between colours (i usually just put it on one colour) it must have been 2.5 hours before I went home for dinner and turned them off.



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[sunnybob]

What? you think the fish had epilepsy from the flashing lights? =D> =D> =D>
no. :lol:


From a standing start, I would say the filter is at its peak efficiency after 2 weeks. From there, it goes down slowly as the material becomes clogged and the water flow drops off.

Dont skimp on filters. Dont remove the carbon if your filter is small enough to fit inside the tank. Its like building a hot rod car with a big engine (the fish), but then not wanting spend on brakes (the filters). the two go together. Fish need clean water. End of story.
With an external or multi stage filter, each section needs a different cleaning routine. First stage should be a sponge, to remove all the big stuff. this would need squeezing clean fairly often.
next stage large chunks of ceramic or similar. that wont need any where near the washing of the sponge. only when the container gets so full of crud you cant the stuff any more.
Last stage fine material. rare to clean this, because the other two stages are protecting it from rubbish.

But having said that, if youre stripping a canister type external, its easier to just briefly rinse everything.
RINSE. NOT SCRUB. use water similar temp as the tank, use no additives because then you will kill all the good bacteria you have so long cultivating. each time you take it aprt, spend a bit more time on the next section.

 

[ColeyS1]

I thought the rapid changing of the lights may have stressed them out lol ! I'm so out of my comfort zone with this...can you tell?

The filter system is built into the lid

I've just removed these two

Which has the charcoal underneath the floss
And added a dose of

Which is also good for the bacterial infections you mentioned.
All I have in the tank now is the course black sponge and the noodles.

So would you suggest I'd be better off continuing with the carbon trays (after treatment) ? Or just add extra noodles and the white floss stuff.

Or add an external filter........

My new assassin snail was exploring the tank last night. I bought two but I've only ever seen the one.

Thanks
Coley

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[ColeyS1]

This is what I'm struggling to understand. If working correctly, should the bacteria in the noodles be doing the cleaning, and the sponge stuff just removing the phsical waste ? Is the carbon just belt and braces worst case scenario or does it just help make the water clear to look at.

To think all this started cause my niece won a goldfish at the fair and tried having 5 goldfish in a 40 litre tank !

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[sunnybob]

Filtration... or to put it in woodworking terms... Sharpening. =D> #-o

Every body knows they are right and the rest of the world is wrong. So...bearing that in mind, everything from now on is what "I" would do;
I (me, personally) would not do away with the charcoal. I never even removed it while dosing the tank with medicines.
Filtering is basically solids, and bacteria. Remove the solids because that just clogs up the bacterial media. Never thoroughly clean the bacterial media because 99% of that is GOOD bacteria. If you want to really blow your mind, research aerobic and anaerobic bacteria.

I would consider that in tank filter to be the bare minimum. I would add a separate external power filter to work alongside it

My preferred system (back in the day) was an undergravel filter tray, being worked backwards by an external power filter. That way the water is sucked from the middle of the tank, through the power filter mediums and then the clean water pumped down the undergravel tray to come back up through the gravel, thus saving you having to clean the gravel as a separate chore.
The only downside to this system is that plants dont do very well as you are constantly removing the rubbish that their roots use as food. But if plants are your thing, you can make areas with low plastic trays buried in the gravel and plant in those.
Catfish arent affected by this method, because theres still bits on the surface of the gravel for them to nose around in, and it even works in your favour because the pleco's spend more time on the glass instead of hoovering up off the gravel.

I see waterlife are selling medicines. They used to be wholesale fish, not even liking the general public to go in. Dont know if they are still at Harlington by the side of heathrow, but if that new runway is built theyll be looking for a new home.