Mould and damp

[Stevekane]

Prompted to post this by a recent post about mouldy shelving in a shed, and of much greater importance the recent media intrest in the somtimes deadly consequences of mould in homes. We live in an old house in a wet area and are very aware that we have to be careful with leaving something like a case laying against an outside wall as it could very easily become covered in mould, and so we just about manage to contain it. But on the news we are shown pictures of homes in a truly shocking state where it looks like the black mould has destroyed the wall and the implication is that its the fault of uncaring landlords, but is this always the case, and many of the homes shown seemed to be reasonably modern and owned by councils and houseing associations? There was certainly one report where a family had water pouring through from a flat upstairs and onother where it was a leaking roof, but I wonder if in the uk enviroment (often damp!) and with the high cost of heating, is it actually possible for a poorer family in even a decent home to keep the mould at bay and if so, how would they do it?
Im sure there are building “experts” in high paid jobs who could advise govt and I wonder if there ought to be some public information about mould, why we get it and how we should manage or aviod it,,or is it the unpalatable fact that its something that the poor in particular have to put up with?
Steve.

 

[Agent_zed]

My dad rents out houses. One tenant had black mould around the windows in the house (which we found after they left without paying). The media would paint this as being the landlords fault but this was in the ~2 year old extension with new pvc double glazing. There was no water ingress at all. The problem is tenants often dry their clothes in the house or run tumble driers without putting the pipe outside etc. And in this case pure laziness. Could have easily wiped it clean. Not like the person had much else to do as it was being paid for by the council.

Another tenant in a different house complained but they had removed the carpet that was there and replaced with a lino type flooring. The place is an old cottage and had a stone type floor underneith. The previous tenants never had a problem as the floor could breathe through carpet but lino stopped it doing this. Coupled again with drying clothes inside it was a bit damp but caused again by the tenant. Dad wanted to take up the lino to investigate and she said if it ripped he would have to pay for it?! So he said nothing he could do then. She kept complaining to my dad and said she would complain to the council, so dad said feel free and they came and investigated. They found nothing wrong and she shut up after that and eventually left. Removed the lino before the next people in and they haven't had a problem since.

Not saying it is always the tenants fault by any means but I've seen first hand cases where it is their fault. It's a problem though as if it's your own house you would get a dehumidifier or turn the heating on a bit longer but most tenants won't do that as they expect the landlord to fix it magically.

 

[MikeJhn]

Cooking without an extract fan on, as said above tumble drying without putting the hose outside, air vents blocked because they cause drafts, these are all reasons for mould I have seen and investigated, in France with the advent of hermetically sealed new builds the regulations now require permanently on trickle ventilation, vents in windows even humidistats, some with heat recovery, we seen to be a bit behind in this respect.

 

[niall Y]

This was something that had occurred to me. as newly built properties should be fully compliant with modern building regulation, There are many ways for water to enter a flat, from faulty plumbing in the flat above, to leaking roofs and walkways, which proper maintenance will take care of. But mould growth due to poor ventilation and an inability to heat the flat is going to be a recurrent problem amongst the poorer folk who have to live in these properties. Maybe, modern homes, have to be redesigned with this in mind as I'm sure this is a problem that just isn't going to go away, any time soon

 

[Fitzroy]

Mould results from a building with 'high' humidity and poor/inconsistent insulation resulting in cold surfaces where moisture can condense. Penetrating moisture can also be an issue but I'm going to ignore that one. When I say 'high' humidity it is related to how poor/inconsistent the insulation is, the better/more consistent the insulation the higher the humidity can be before you have a problem.

Over the years we have insulated(ish) and are now blocking up draughts as prices rise. This is resulting in local cold spots as retrofitting insulation is hard to do well, or we have rooms unheated to save money, and humidity is rising as we see less air flow through a property. Condensation and mould incoming!

If you actually build a new house with insulation and ventilation in mind you make surfaces consistently warm with no cold spots, and control air flow and ventilation via ducting and inlet/outlet heat exchange such that you minimise air change heating costs and maintain good air quality.

Retrofitting insulation, and to an extent modern house design, is a horrid half way house where it's difficult to manage condensation risk and drive bills to a much lower level.

 

[Jacob]

Chapel conversion.
We have high level of insulation retro-fitted (4" on all external walls, 9"+ in roof space).
Ventilation is out via two "Passivent" vents (no power required) and in via less than hermetically sealed doors and window openers - you have to have air flow though or you suffocate!
Single glazing (architectural conservation) gets a bit of condensation but drains off to a channel on each window with 10mm pipe taking it outside - a very traditional detail which used to be very common with public buildings.
Result - bone dry everywhere. Heating bill moderate to low.
Cloths dry on a clothes horses inside - no problem, who needs a tumble drier?
These problems are easy to fix.
If a landlord can't or won't do them he should drop the rent or lose his licence - if he had one that is, but any careless ne'er-do-well can be a landlord unfortunately! They are much more controlled in many EU states and private rental isn't an issue like it is here. Brexit and de-regulation means lower standards everywhere.

 

[Spectric]

What is missing in modern homes is the good old draughts, once you make a sealed well insulated box then you will have damp issues and we each produce around 500 grams of water vapour a day. Solution is to use a heat recovery ventilation system to keep heat in and replenish the air within with fresh.

 

[Agent_zed]

Chapel conversion.
We have high level of insulation retro-fitted (4" on all external walls, 9"+ in roof space).
Ventilation is out via two "Passivent" vents (no power required) and in via less than hermetically sealed doors and window openers - you have to have air flow though or you suffocate!
Single glazing (architectural conservation) gets a bit of condensation but drains off to a channel on each window with 10mm pipe taking it outside - a very traditional detail which used to be very common with public buildings.
Result - bone dry everywhere. Heating bill moderate to low.
Cloths dry on a clothes horses inside - no problem, who needs a tumble drier?
These problems are easy to fix.
If a landlord can't or won't do them he should drop the rent or lose his licence - if he had one that is, but any careless ne'er-do-well can be a landlord unfortunately! They are much more controlled in many EU states and private rental isn't an issue like it is here. Brexit and de-regulation means lower standards everywhere.

And any careless ne'er-do-well can be a tenant also. If you are a landlord you will know the pitfalls of a bad tenant.

Do you think you won't get any complaints if you rented out a single glazed house with draughtly doors and windows and told the tenants it's to prevent mould?

 

[Jacob]

And any careless ne'er-do-well can be a tenant also. If you are a landlord you will know the pitfalls of a bad tenant.

Do you think you won't get any complaints if you rented out a single glazed house with draughtly doors and windows and told the tenants it's to prevent mould?

Landlords should be obliged to work at or above minimum standards - they are dealing with life essentials.
If they can't it should be reflected in the rent. If the floor is too damp for lino the tenant should at least be told etc etc. The landlord is the self-elected property expert, the tenant is not .
Chatting to a German only yesterday - apparently you can go through a check list on your tenancy and if things aren't up to scratch you can claim rent reduction plus arrears.

 

[Doug71]

I think how people live in a property makes a lot of difference. I own a little rental property, it's an old place with solid walls but has been mostly dry lined and insulated plus it's double glazed. The last tenants who just moved out were in for 2 years, lovely professional couple, no mention of damp and when they moved out the house was in excellent condition. A tenant before them said it was damp, I know for a fact they didn't heat the property properly, they dried washing inside and I found all the trickle vents etc closed when they left. After they moved out the house and garden were an absolute tip, I had to re carpet etc, there was the odd sign of damp but nothing major.

I don't hold out much hope for the new tenant, they never seem to open the curtains which is generally a bad sign

With it being an older property I'm a bit concerned about the new EPC rules coming in 2025, I have been meaning to start a thread quizzing the knowledgeable people on here about them and this thread has prompted me to do that.

 

[Agent_zed]

Landlords should be obliged to work at or above minimum standards - they are dealing with life essentials.
If they can't it should be reflected in the rent. If the floor is too damp for lino the tenant should at least be told etc etc. The landlord is the self-elected property expert, the tenant is not .
Chatting to a German only yesterday - apparently you can go through a check list on your tenancy and if things aren't up to scratch you can claim rent reduction plus arrears.

Whilst I agree there should be min standards, you are vastly over simplifying the situation. In my lino example the tenant took out the carpet provided (and threw it away) and replaced it with the lino without asking. My dad is pretty good at most things but mind reading is not one of them. So what do you expect my dad to do? There was never a damp issue in the 3 years prior to that as it had always been carpet, and there hasn't been since. How could he possibly know that lino would cause a problem and even if he did he had no intention of installing it.

If you want heavy regulation and licencing then it cuts both ways. Should a landlord do monthly inspections giving the required 48hrs notice and if he finds the bathroom extractor turned off, the thermostat less than 18c or clothes drying on the radiators give the tenant a strike. 3 strikes and you are out?

One of dad's tenants called me (as I was covering emergencies whilst they were away) because their toaster had tripped the trip switch. I had to drive across town to push the switch up because she 'didn't know how'. It was her appliance that had caused the fault, should I add the cost of me going there to the rent? resetting a trip is not something that you can expect a landlord to do unless there is an actual fault in the house electrics.

My dad has always given the tenants a lot of leeway on what they can do as it is their 'home' but that requires them to also look after the property. A few few over the years have certainly not done that and the amount of rent unpaid is pretty significant.

I agree slum landlords should be shut down but I believe the majority are doing the right thing.

 

[Jacob]

Whilst I agree there should be min standards, you are vastly over simplifying the situation. In my lino example the tenant took out the carpet provided (and threw it away) and replaced it with the lino without asking. My dad is pretty good at most things but mind reading is not one of them.

Yebbut he's running a business, not a charity nor just doing people favours

So what do you expect my dad to do? There was never a damp issue in the 3 years prior to that as it had always been carpet, and there hasn't been since. How could he possibly know that lino would cause a problem and even if he did he had no intention of installing it.

He knows now that the floor is damp!

If you want heavy regulation and licencing then it cuts both ways. Should a landlord do monthly inspections giving the required 48hrs notice and if he finds the bathroom extractor turned off, the thermostat less than 18c or clothes drying on the radiators give the tenant a strike. 3 strikes and you are out?

One of dad's tenants called me (as I was covering emergencies whilst they were away) because their toaster had tripped the trip switch. I had to drive across town to push the switch up because she 'didn't know how'. It was her appliance that had caused the fault, should I add the cost of me going there to the rent?

No sorry it's part of the job! Surely if a fuse is tripped you'd want to know anyway, particularly if the tenant is a dope.

resetting a trip is not something that you can expect a landlord to do unless there is an actual fault in the house electrics.

My dad has always given the tenants a lot of leeway on what they can do as it is their 'home' but that requires them to also look after the property. A few few over the years have certainly not done that and the amount of rent unpaid is pretty significant.

I agree slum landlords should be shut down but I believe the majority are doing the right thing.

I guess something like an MOT once a year would do it, with written standards compliance and feedback both ways so both sides know the score. Rent adjustments imposed etc.
Housing needs regulating just as much as road vehicles as a home is essential for all and everybody, even if they are lunatics.
As it is we have anarchy and rampant profiteering, not to mention property price inflation.

This article takes a tough line “....Remediate it completely 100% or run; get out of the property....”
https://www.theguardian.com/society...used-by-mould-urges-action-on-rogue-landlordsHopefully things will change, following Grenfell Tower and all the other fiascos regularly reported.

 

[Bingy man]

As above it’s not always the landlords fault, in a lot of cases yes - older properties now fitted with double glazing, air vents sealed up , larger households with extended families/ student accommodation with multiple persons in a room designed for 2 .add to this cooking in a small unventilated kitchens with oversized pots and the constant drying of laundry without the central heating causes huge problems for any landlord be they private or social housing. As per the original post it’s education and advice that is required to combat mould and damp. There will always be slum landlords and likewise there will be people desperate to get a roof over their heads . My own flat -60,s built, 2bed ground floor ,3 sides of external walls and yes I dry laundry inside in the winter ( no tumble dryer) has never suffered with damp or mould. The flat opposite is the exact design but is so damp the internal woodwork has started to rot , mould on the walls and ceilings etc but unlike myself he never opens his windows-has sealed up all the window vents and external vents ,never opens his windows. The only other thing I do differently is to place those small condensation tubs on the window boards in the autumn to spring months .

 

[Agent_zed]

He knows now that the floor is damp!

The floor isn't damp! that is the entire point! It only causes a problem if it can't breathe. Which is the same as the others have said on this post. If the tenant does certain things it will cause a problem regardless of how well regulated the land lord is. There hasn't been an issue since she left 3 years ago.

No sorry it's part of the job! Surely if a fuse is tripped you'd want to know anyway, particularly if the tenant is a dope.

No it is not. If the tenant is plugging in things that aren't electrically safe and causing the trip at activate then that is on them. If there is an electrical fault in the house wiring then it is the landlords responsibility.

What about a lightbulb? should the landlord replace that?

You complain about rent profiteering but then want the landlord to be on 24/7/365 callout to push up a trip switch for something that the tenant caused?! You can't have it both ways.

 

[Jacob]

The floor isn't damp! that is the entire point! It only causes a problem if it can't breathe.

That IS a common damp problem with a simple remedy - relay the floor with a dpm. Put in some underfloor heating while you are at it?

Which is the same as the others have said on this post. If the tenant does certain things it will cause a problem regardless of how well regulated the land lord is. There hasn't been an issue since she left 3 years ago.



No it is not. If the tenant is plugging in things that aren't electrically safe and causing the trip at activate then that is on them.

Only if they know what's what. Some people haven't the foggiest idea about all sorts of practicalities

If there is an electrical fault in the house wiring then it is the landlords responsibility.

What about a lightbulb? should the landlord replace that?

Hopefully not, but if the tenant is an silly person it might be wise!

You complain about rent profiteering but then want the landlord to be on 24/7/365 callout to push up a trip switch for something that the tenant caused?! You can't have it both ways.

Perhaps you have to see it like a car hire business. But as though you are hiring to people who can barely drive , let alone do simple routine maintenance. Be alert 24/7 and look after your very valuable asset!

 

[Agent_zed]

That IS a common damp problem with a simple remedy - relay the floor with a dpm. Put in some underfloor heating while you are at it?

Only if they know what's what. Some people haven't the foggiest idea about all sorts of practicalities

Hopefully not, but if the tenant is an silly person it might be wise!

Perhaps you have to see it like a car hire business. But as though you are hiring to people who can barely drive , let alone do simple routine maintenance. Be alert 24/7 and look after your very valuable asset!

Whilst we are fully capable of replacing the floor ourselves why would we? I've already said numerous times there is no issue with the floor if a carpet is used. Your 'simple' remedy would be hugely expensive for most people. Also if you know anything about underfloor heating you often get more condensation on windows due to the way the heat moves.

So because people are too dumb to do the most basic of things, the landlord should become their personal assistant?! How about people learn to not be dumb and take some responsibility for their lives.

It's a perfectly good property if treated correctly, its a B EPC rating and as said the council found no problems with it. Just a tenant doing what they wanted causing their own issue. It's a 100+ year old property, there is only so much you can do.

If it is like a car hire business then you charge more to rent to under 25's or over 70's? You bill for every scratch and additional 'mileage', you charge if you have to go out to sort a problem that the driver caused and it costs more to hire than to buy your own.

For the record my dad charges significantly less than market rate, which makes it all the more annoying when people can't be bothered to do the simplest of things for themselves.

 

[Ttrees]

"Cold house blues makes everything slippy"

 

[NormanB]

It is curious that damp and mould are much more prevalent in the rented sector (both private and via ‘authorities’) than in the owner occupied sector.

This speaks to behaviours rather than intrinsic differences in build quality/maintenance.

 

[Adam W.]

Mould is becoming a big problem here, as people are reluctant to put their heating on. A lot of the mould problems in heated houses are caused by cold bridging, which is a symptom of poor construction detailing.

 

[Jacob]

Trad single glazing, especially the sash window, work as a de-humidifiers. They are the "cold bridges" where water first condenses, runs down and drains off at the meeting rail or cill, to the outside.
Same can happen with double glazing but only when the temperature gets a good bit lower, by which time you may have damp walls already.
Strategically placed single glazed windows could be a good idea, with secondary glazing to close on them when not needed as dehumidifiers.