Marking out stuff

[woodenstx]

I need a new, or rather a Square, square.
I picked up two "engineers" squares from Toolstation and while it probably isnt a shock to you, they are rubbish and car from square I'd take them back but I've made do without them for so long that its not possible (plus they were only a couple of quid... says it all).
With that in mind, What is a GOOD square device (dont want one of those sliding types as I dont trust them for anything meaningful) for under £25ish.
I've got one of the fun incra metric rule with 0.25mm marking out holes etc for being accurate with that, but its not much cop at being a square for normal use.

Also, marking gauges, traditional or wheel type? Seem veritas is the only wheel option, thats no biggie really but are there better/worse options?)

cheers

 

[marcros]

i know that you dont want a sliding one but i would go with http://www.onlyqualitytools.com/catalog ... uares.html

i bought the combination set and it is excellent.

 

[Jacob]

yes the combi is a basic essential IMHO. Stanley, Bahco etc cheaper than Starrett.

Marking gauges - the old pin sort are totally superior to the trendy and expensive wheel variety. You need several - it's handy to keep settings on some jobs, but they are cheap new and even cheaper 2nd hand.

NB whilst on the subject "marking knife" causes confusion - they aren't for marking as such but are for cutting a mark where a clean edge is really needed such as shoulder of an M&T, which would be visible. Use pencil.

 

[John15]

For an engineer's square for woodwork this sort of thing is worth considering.
http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Kin ... 100mm.html
http://woodworkersworkshop.co.uk/epages ... FISSQUA150.

John

 

[MikeJhn]

I bought a couple of engineers square's from Axminster and they are spot on, trouble is they do not seem to have a link on the web site anymore, perhaps they do not stock them anymore?

Mike

 

[custard]

Moore & Wright do combination squares at not entirely jaw dropping prices,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/300mm-12-Carp ... SwFnFV~A3y

I can't believe they manufacture in house for this price (unlike say Starrett), but surely the M&W name should stand for something? Combination squares are exceptionally useful to the woodworker, Charles Haywood wrote that during the second world war many woodworkers were drafted into engineering roles, and when the war was over they brought back several engineering tools into their previous occupations. Chief amongst them was the combination square, and it is a bit of a game changer, but quality costs and a poor combi square is worse than useless.

Regarding marking gauges. You need a few as ideally you'd leave them set for the course of a project, so you can return to an exact setting should you have to remake a component. Wheel gauges certainly have their place, they're excellent for rolling around an edge and cross grain work, where they fall down is it's hard to make that critical first pass as a the merest scratch, you tend to drop straight into a full deep cut much too early which on long grain marking can mean you wander off track. In the dash to "modernise" the trusty old pin gauge has fallen out of favour, and that's a shame. For long grain work, especially in hard, open grained timbers like Oak, a well set up pin gauge has really never been beaten.

Finally here's what, IMO, is a really excellent wheel gauge. It's a bit more whizzy electronics than I usually like but it performs very well,

http://woodworkersworkshop.co.uk/epages ... /IG_35-780

It's the one gauge that does allow precise re-setting to a previously set measurement. Furthermore it's well made, the battery doesn't conk out after five minutes, and it has a good size fence for accurate work.

Good luck!

 

[lurker]

Finally here's what, IMO, is a really excellent wheel gauge. It's a bit more whizzy electronics than I usually like but it performs very well,

http://woodworkersworkshop.co.uk/epages ... /IG_35-780

It's the one gauge that does allow precise re-setting to a previously set measurement. Furthermore it's well made, the battery doesn't conk out after five minutes, and it has a good size fence for accurate work.

Good luck!

Jacob,
If you read this, I suggest a lie down in a dark room :lol:

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I bought a couple of engineers square's from Axminster and they are spot on, trouble is they do not seem to have a link on the web site anymore, perhaps they do not stock them anymore?

Mike

They had them on offer a couple of weeks ago, they've probably altered (or screwed up) the link somewhere along the way.

 

[Fitzroy]

+1 for the electronic gauge custard linked. I can zero it on the cast bed of my planer, use it for a dozen different measurements and when I put it back on the cast bed it is within .01-0.02 mm of zero, it is really quite impressive and maintaining it's zero point even after big slid in an out and out and in.

F.

 

[lurker]

Might be worth a punt

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Faithfull-Carp ... ers+square

Assume you know how to check for square using a bit of melamine faced board?
I check mine at least once a month.

 

[transatlantic]

These are the news squares from axminster :

http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-pr ... s-ax965991

 

[woodenstx]

Maybe I use combis "wrong" but I've never really seen the benefit over a normal fixed effort... (dons flameproof suit).

Thanks for the info on marking gauges.

 

[transatlantic]

A few things off top of head

- Sizing to fit small projects
- Marking a line down a board
- Measuring depth of mortices or size of tenons
- Measuring height of router bit
- Marking 45 degress

If you have the set you can do other stuff like center finding and custom angle stuff.

 

[Jacob]

Combi squares usually have a scribe pin in the handle which tends to get lost, if not it is very handy - hinge marking and all sorts.

 

[JakeS]

Marking gauges - the old pin sort are totally superior to the trendy and expensive wheel variety.

Perhaps you could expand upon why? I've only ever found the pin ones thoroughly unhelpful - more likely than a wheel to follow the grain and/or gouge than actually make a useful mark. But maybe I'm using them wrong!

I kind of suspect it's one of those things where the "best" option is the one you're most used to.



At the very least, there are definitely cheaper alternatives to Veritas for the wheel variety. You could get one of these and have a pin, a blade and a wheel! ;-)
http://www.axminster.co.uk/3-in-1-brass ... uge-202397

I have one like this, which I'm happy enough with, although as the reviews state there's a bit of backlash on the micro-adjust that you have to learn to cope with. I'm pretty sure I only paid around £15 for it (possibly from Rutlands during a 'sale'?):
http://www.axminster.co.uk/marking-gauge-200308

(That said, the Veritas ones don't seem to be horribly overpriced when compared to the competition or some of their other products. Especially if they don't have so much backlash. ;-) )

Maybe I use combis "wrong" but I've never really seen the benefit over a normal fixed effort...

The benefit I see most often is that I can slide the rule over to a certain 'depth' past the 90-degree fence (which could be referenced off of the piece directly) and then mark consistently x millimetres from the reference edge.

 

[Jacob]

Marking gauges - the old pin sort are totally superior to the trendy and expensive wheel variety.

Perhaps you could expand upon why? I've only ever found the pin ones thoroughly unhelpful - more likely than a wheel to follow the grain and/or gouge than actually make a useful mark. But maybe I'm using them wrong!....

Yep you definitely using them wrong. It may follow the grain the first few times you use one at the very beginning of your career - but by day 2 you should have got it under control!
Basically the wooden ones are much nicer to handle, being big and rounded, which is important if you do a lot of marking. Also they can do anything from a fine line to a deep gouge, as required. They are very cheap and they last forever.

PS following the grain - there is a simple trick - you use the gauge running a line away from you but starting near the far end, then back to do a bit more line running into this, and again. Difficult to describe but easy and 2nd nature to do.

 

[AndyT]

Or put differently... With a pin type gauge, you should have the long corner (arris) of the stem touching the wood, so that the pin is leaning over, and makes a line as it trails along the wood. Don't try to keep the pin vertical by raising the stem above the wood you are marking. Definitely don't try to bury the whole length of the pin into the wood.
The pin is easily adjusted if it's too long or short.

If this is not what you are doing, please ignore me!

 

[Jacob]

Yes there's a tiny bit of craft skill in using a pin marking gauge. For some it may take a few minutes to get it.
It's much cheaper and much easier to use than a wheel gauge but not so profitable for tool sellers - so it doesn't get the hype.
Never give a sucker an even break!

 

[lurker]

And filthy cheap so you can use several on a job with no faffing about adjusting for each operation.

Too many folks try to spend their way into shortcuts to skills...... Where is the fun in that.

 

[custard]

I don't think wheel gauges are particularly new. I've no idea how old this one is, maybe Andy knows?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/cabinet-maker ... 1745328144

If anything this one might be better designed than most modern ones in that the diameter of the wheel is only very slightly larger than the diameter of the shaft. And right there is the problem with wheel gauges, unless the disc is biting fully the shaft rides above the workpiece, which makes it unstable. I'll live with that problem for, say, marking out the cross grain shoulders on dovetails, because the benefit of being able to roll the gauge around the corner when marking the tailpiece makes it worthwhile for the way I work. But for, say, marking long grain on the full length of a long board of tough, open grained Oak, then it's just not the best tool and carries a high risk of inaccuracy.

A traditional pin gauge has three separate manual components,

1. Holding the fence firmly to the edge of the workpiece. Easy with a pin gauge as you're referencing off two surfaces, both the fence and the shaft, versus a wheel gauge where you're only referencing off the fence.

2. Turning or twisting the gauge so the pin is applying pressure to the workpiece. With practise you can do this with real precision, making an initial scribe that's barely a scratch, but that will help guide subsequent strokes without veering off.

3. Pushing or pulling the gauge.

I think most people at first struggle to integrate these three separate manoeuvres, often regarding the pushing/pulling as sovereign when in fact the other two actions are far more important. But with practise you'll nail it (pin it?) and then you'll have a friend for life! There are also some (but not all) knife/cutting gauges that have that the same virtue of a controlled initial "light scratch" mark, maybe worth trying one of those until you get the hang of it?