Paul Chapman
Established Member
Scrit":2mjjytor said:
Scrit, I know what a drip groove is, but what's a cold stop groove?
Cheers :wink:
Paul
Making a window with basic tools (lots of pics)
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Scrit, I know what a drip groove is, but what's a cold stop groove?
Cheers :wink:
Paul
The drip groove is already in the cill section that i buy off the shelf . The cold groove i thought was for getting a key in the mortar or for the expanding foam . I seem to remember on some of the UPVC windows and doors there is a frame tie that twists into this groove rather than screwing the frame tie to the plastic .
As most of my windows and doors are going into existing properties i don't put this groove in because i fix the frames in with screws .
As most of my windows and doors are going into existing properties i don't put this groove in because i fix the frames in with screws .
A cold stop groove is often found on modern factory produced windows. It is a groove which runs around the outside of the frame. Having talked to Jason we've sort of come to the conclusion that it is a method of keying in the frame to the masonry when expanding foam is used to seal in the frame. Perhaps Mr G would be able to shed some more light on the subject
Scrit
Scrit
Benchwayze
Established Member
Joinery Grade Redwood! Where?
Scene:
My local timber merchant. It went something like this.
Me. "Do you have any joinery grade softwood?' I said softwood, 'cos I guessed the assistant might think redwood was well... really, really, red!
He waved his arm towards the timber that was piled on end. "We only stock the best mate. Take your pick."
I saw plenty of shakes, bowed planks, twisted planks, knots, and all of it sticky with resin. But no nice, dry JGS!
Me. "Okay then. Have you got any builders' planks?"
"Most of the lads just use what's there."
I thought. "Yeah I bet they do!"
I left, and went to Henry Venables for some hardwood instead!
Can't get the staff y'know.
John
Scene:
My local timber merchant. It went something like this.
Me. "Do you have any joinery grade softwood?' I said softwood, 'cos I guessed the assistant might think redwood was well... really, really, red!
He waved his arm towards the timber that was piled on end. "We only stock the best mate. Take your pick."
I saw plenty of shakes, bowed planks, twisted planks, knots, and all of it sticky with resin. But no nice, dry JGS!
Me. "Okay then. Have you got any builders' planks?"
"Most of the lads just use what's there."
I thought. "Yeah I bet they do!"
I left, and went to Henry Venables for some hardwood instead!
Can't get the staff y'know.
John
Benchwayze
Established Member
JFC":2ob4ce5f said:I did have a tidy up after the fire and promised myself to keep it that way as it was a pleasure to work that way ........but i'm so busy it's mayhem again
Do you work alone J?
Just wondered if you might be teaching a youngster some of these skills you have. Said youngster could start by learning how to keep the shop tidy! :shock:
:shock:engineer one
Established Member
john, that wouldn't work, jason would lose the apprentice in the shop or crossing the koi pond bringing the tea in :lol: :lol:
anyway jas would never find his tools if it was tidy, says someone who having filled some of the drawer i have made finds himself with even more tools he did not know he had :? and few of those are gloat worthy :twisted:
paul :wink:
anyway jas would never find his tools if it was tidy, says someone who having filled some of the drawer i have made finds himself with even more tools he did not know he had :? and few of those are gloat worthy :twisted:
paul :wink:
I had an apprentice a while ago but now most of my work is workshop based it would be too much hassle changing all the machines and keeping an eye on him / her ...... Her , hmmmmmmm , maybe i'll have a rethink :lol:
engineer one
Established Member
clump clump here comes the ealf and safety gnome????
all those guards, and would you need to get 110 volts??
anyway today's youngsters don't want to make tea :twisted:
paul :wink:
all those guards, and would you need to get 110 volts??
anyway today's youngsters don't want to make tea :twisted:
paul :wink:
A
Anonymous
Guest
Joinery grade redwood is available you just have to find the right timber merchant. There will be one near you.Benchwayze":3gvnv5l6 said:Joinery Grade Redwood! Where?
Scene:
My local timber merchant. It went something like this.
Me. "Do you have any joinery grade softwood?' I said softwood, 'cos I guessed the assistant might think redwood was well... really, really, red!
He waved his arm towards the timber that was piled on end. "We only stock the best mate. Take your pick."
I saw plenty of shakes, bowed planks, twisted planks, knots, and all of it sticky with resin. But no nice, dry JGS!
Me. "Okay then. Have you got any builders' planks?"
"Most of the lads just use what's there."
I thought. "Yeah I bet they do!"
I left, and went to Henry Venables for some hardwood instead!
Can't get the staff y'know.
John
What you ask for is "unsorted" swedish redwood. Unsorted Russian also good. Next grade down is swedish 5ths or russian 4ths which also can be excellent . Avoid a yard where they will let you choose your boards - this may mean that others have been there before you and already taken the best stuff, or worse - the yard itself will have sorted out the best stuff for their own uses.
The only thing that's hard to get nowadays is the larger sizes say over 10". Thats because that would have to be cut from old virgin forest whereas most of what's available is farmed - and eco friendly etc.
Softwood gets rubbished a lot on this group which is a big mistake.
cheers
Jacob
A
Anonymous
Guest
Dunno can't account for modern practices. It would be a benefit in forming an air gap I guess, but it's not something I've ever found in old joinery. Also it'd break the continuity from front to back and so prevent water being blown across.Scrit":3vsoxsn2 said:
BTW trad joinery NEVER EVER has the backs underside or tops of frames painted with primer or anything, and an air gap is always maintained by packing or whatever. Draughts are sealed off though, with mastic, but as little as necessary. NEVER packed with mortar in the modern way as this is a really bad water retaining detail, esp at the foot.
cheers
Jacob
cheers
Jacob
bugbear
Established Member
JFC":127zsaju said:
That's definitely not a "polished and dust-sheeted every night" sort of bench, is it
BugBear
engineer one
Established Member
as usual jacob useful and valuable information.
only comment is that surely one of the reasons for much of the old traditional gaps was to do with the houses having coal fires, and thus needing more air movement??
also of course none of the modern "wonder " materials were available :lol: :twisted:
interesting comments about softwood, i think the important thing is it is no longer sold as a particular species so it is a generic wood, and until you know what you are looking for it is difficult to understand what wood can be used for what purpose.
maybe that is something we can look at promoting here, wood understanding and explanations. i mean many of us older ones have heard of poplar and london plane, but what are the modern replacements, and what can we use them for??
paul :wink:
only comment is that surely one of the reasons for much of the old traditional gaps was to do with the houses having coal fires, and thus needing more air movement??
also of course none of the modern "wonder " materials were available :lol: :twisted:
interesting comments about softwood, i think the important thing is it is no longer sold as a particular species so it is a generic wood, and until you know what you are looking for it is difficult to understand what wood can be used for what purpose.
maybe that is something we can look at promoting here, wood understanding and explanations. i mean many of us older ones have heard of poplar and london plane, but what are the modern replacements, and what can we use them for??
paul :wink:
A
Anonymous
Guest
"Redwood" is a softwood and the most common joinery timber. It's the UK name for timber from just one species; Scots Pine. Nothing to do with the redwood tree. Can also be called red deal, yellow deal, red pine and other names often related to where it came from such as "Archangel pine".engineer one":3nob4krq said:
"Whitewood" can be various species with spruce most common, also called white deal, white pine and various other names.
Its all really confusing!
cheers
Jacob
Just to let you know Jacob , those frames where primed by the customer before i picked them up :wink:
Ok , ready to make the casements now . So i have got my sizes at 720mm x 448mm for the bottom opener and 362mm x 448mm for the top opener . I am using 94mm x45mm for the bottom rail of the bottom opener and 64mm x 45mm for all the other rails . I've beefed up the sizes of the 64mm rails from 45 mm x 45mm because i want to put a 15mm rebate in them to hide the metal bar in the double glazed unit . If i used 45mm x 45mm i wouldn't be able to fit any iron mongery on the windows to keep them shut . (don't ask how i found this out please )
I marked them out the same way as the frame , adding the 10mm waste then 49mm ( 64 - 15 ) up to 720mm and back 79mm ( 94 - 15) for the bottom rail . Then transfer the marks over to the other stile . The same on the top rail 10mm , 49mm , 362mm and back 49mm . All the top and bottom rails where 10 mm , 49 mm 448mm and back 49mm .
Because we are using 45mm thick timber everything is a bit tight to get the 24mm dg unit in . I now get my stock milled up for me at 65mm x 50mm and 95mm x 50mm to give me more room for a thicker glazing bead . On this window i will be going for a 6mm glazing bead and bead the window from the inside . I want a chamfer on the out side to give the impression that the window is puttied in rather than beaded .
Ok , ready to make the casements now . So i have got my sizes at 720mm x 448mm for the bottom opener and 362mm x 448mm for the top opener . I am using 94mm x45mm for the bottom rail of the bottom opener and 64mm x 45mm for all the other rails . I've beefed up the sizes of the 64mm rails from 45 mm x 45mm because i want to put a 15mm rebate in them to hide the metal bar in the double glazed unit . If i used 45mm x 45mm i wouldn't be able to fit any iron mongery on the windows to keep them shut . (don't ask how i found this out please
)I marked them out the same way as the frame , adding the 10mm waste then 49mm ( 64 - 15 ) up to 720mm and back 79mm ( 94 - 15) for the bottom rail . Then transfer the marks over to the other stile . The same on the top rail 10mm , 49mm , 362mm and back 49mm . All the top and bottom rails where 10 mm , 49 mm 448mm and back 49mm .
Because we are using 45mm thick timber everything is a bit tight to get the 24mm dg unit in . I now get my stock milled up for me at 65mm x 50mm and 95mm x 50mm to give me more room for a thicker glazing bead . On this window i will be going for a 6mm glazing bead and bead the window from the inside . I want a chamfer on the out side to give the impression that the window is puttied in rather than beaded .
OPJ
Established Member
Thanks also for this thread. I'd like to replace the horrible little window I have in my garage with a traditional timber effort but my memory's a little rusty since college as I don't actually make these in my current job.
I've also found it quite common locally for people to add hardwood (usually sapele) cils to an otherwise softwood construction. Pressure treated softwood seems to be used in roofing and similar applications these days, but why not window frames?
Can I also ask what you'd use to finish it? I've heard some paints can actually increase the chances of timber rotting outdoors.
Keep it coming, please!
I've also found it quite common locally for people to add hardwood (usually sapele) cils to an otherwise softwood construction. Pressure treated softwood seems to be used in roofing and similar applications these days, but why not window frames?
Can I also ask what you'd use to finish it? I've heard some paints can actually increase the chances of timber rotting outdoors.
Keep it coming, please!
Pressure treated timber isn't used because its not joinery grade timber . If you plane a peice up you will see what i mean . I'm afraid i'm not a expert on finishes , i hate that part :lol: although after seeing the spray work today at Matts (more tools please ) place i think i may be spraying it .
On to the window ......
Rebates , i did mine on the spindle moulder in one pass 8) but there are plenty of ways as you may well know . I used to hog out the main material on the table saw and use the off cut to make the beading to hold the glass in place ( beading recovery ) . If you don't have a router table the a bearing guided rebate cutter will do although the most you be able to get is 12mm on the rebate , i'm after 15mm . (you maybe able to get a deeper rebate but i don't know of a rebate bearing guided cutter that will go bigger than 12mm )
If you do have a router table then a straight cutter will give you the rebate you need .
Both cutters will take quite a few passes if you don't hog out the material first .
Now the chamfer
You want this to be the same depth as the rebate as it makes it easier to cut the tenon shoulders rather than having stepped shoulders .
The plan is to cut away the chamfer on the morticed stile where the M&T shoulders meet .
Again loads of ways to do this with router cutters ets but i though id use a normal smoothing plane just for fun . Normally i would leave the timber at longer lengths (2-3M ) but as i am using off cuts and i am trying to show how i make windows i cut them to length first .
I leave a flat of about 2mm where the chamfer meets the rebate as taking it to a point will :
1; get damaged very quickly
2; be the first place to rot and
3; i need something square as a datum for when i cut away the moulding on the morticed rail .
Marking out the mortice and tenons .
1/3 of the timber like the frame or 1/2" if you have a mortice machine .
I cut the tenons full size even though it's a haunched M&T that will be used . For the mortice you need to mark full size on the front but half way on the back and include the marks for wedges .
One mortice is bigger for the bottom rail on the bottom opener .
now cut the tenon cheeks with a very expensive specialized saw :lol:
On to the window ......
Rebates , i did mine on the spindle moulder in one pass 8) but there are plenty of ways as you may well know . I used to hog out the main material on the table saw and use the off cut to make the beading to hold the glass in place ( beading recovery ) . If you don't have a router table the a bearing guided rebate cutter will do although the most you be able to get is 12mm on the rebate , i'm after 15mm . (you maybe able to get a deeper rebate but i don't know of a rebate bearing guided cutter that will go bigger than 12mm )
If you do have a router table then a straight cutter will give you the rebate you need .
Both cutters will take quite a few passes if you don't hog out the material first .
Now the chamfer
You want this to be the same depth as the rebate as it makes it easier to cut the tenon shoulders rather than having stepped shoulders .
The plan is to cut away the chamfer on the morticed stile where the M&T shoulders meet .
Again loads of ways to do this with router cutters ets but i though id use a normal smoothing plane just for fun . Normally i would leave the timber at longer lengths (2-3M ) but as i am using off cuts and i am trying to show how i make windows i cut them to length first .
I leave a flat of about 2mm where the chamfer meets the rebate as taking it to a point will :
1; get damaged very quickly
2; be the first place to rot and
3; i need something square as a datum for when i cut away the moulding on the morticed rail .
Marking out the mortice and tenons .
1/3 of the timber like the frame or 1/2" if you have a mortice machine .
I cut the tenons full size even though it's a haunched M&T that will be used . For the mortice you need to mark full size on the front but half way on the back and include the marks for wedges .
One mortice is bigger for the bottom rail on the bottom opener .
now cut the tenon cheeks with a very expensive specialized saw :lol:
Now the mortices , a 3D bit is again a good way to hog out the main material .
Because it's a haunched joint you need to cut half a full mortice and the last part is half way down like a stop mortice .
don't forget to cut out for the wedges .
Once you have cut the haunch on the tenon you can slide the joint together and mark where the beading needs to be cut away on the side stile (morticed part )
Both beads need a 45* cut on them , if you cut just shy of the line you can scribe the joint in as you put it together .
slide the saw down the mitre until the shoulders meet .
One haunched mortice and tenon , do this for all the joints and it's time for clamp up .
Sorry about the gap , i was holding one part in my hand and the other between my legs while trying to take a pic :lol:
Because it's a haunched joint you need to cut half a full mortice and the last part is half way down like a stop mortice .
don't forget to cut out for the wedges .
Once you have cut the haunch on the tenon you can slide the joint together and mark where the beading needs to be cut away on the side stile (morticed part )
Both beads need a 45* cut on them , if you cut just shy of the line you can scribe the joint in as you put it together .
slide the saw down the mitre until the shoulders meet .
One haunched mortice and tenon , do this for all the joints and it's time for clamp up .
Sorry about the gap , i was holding one part in my hand and the other between my legs while trying to take a pic :lol:
engineer one
Established Member
some people will do anything for sympathy :lol: :twisted:
thought that was how you held all things :?
nice pictures and very good work mate, well done, nice explanation too.
paul :wink:
thought that was how you held all things :?
nice pictures and very good work mate, well done, nice explanation too.
paul :wink:
engineer one
Established Member
well its only taken me about 3 years to learn how to post pictures properly.
now i have to learn about making things in wood :twisted: :lol:
actually today finally got round to cutting up some more of that oak mdf, to make some more bookshelves and a printer support. boy the dust.
i had the vacuum fitted to the dx port on the 708, and there is still mdf dust in places i didn't know i had :roll:
paul :wink:
now i have to learn about making things in wood :twisted: :lol:
actually today finally got round to cutting up some more of that oak mdf, to make some more bookshelves and a printer support. boy the dust.
i had the vacuum fitted to the dx port on the 708, and there is still mdf dust in places i didn't know i had :roll:
paul :wink:
