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TheTiddles

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I suppose it does make a difference depending on the style you ride or where you ride, but potting along. On the main road its likely crush injuries from a motorist will cause the most damage. Offroad those is a different kettle of fish where offs are common, as are trees and large rocks, and going over the bars due to hills it's your head thats likely to contact the ground. There helmets arent just a requirement but a necessity.
Wearing a lid,while not a stringent law should be there as a matter of caution.
I can’t disagree with you there, but I do think people can make a choice on that one, it’s only themselves they will hurt.

Same with saws, it comes with guards and instructions, take them off and cut your fingers off... personal choice.

Let’s not mention who pays for the NHS to fix them

Aidan
 

Tenacity

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I would say that here in the US you might find a riving knife if you walk into the average home shop, but its unlikely you will find a blade gard (installed)

If you think the lack of a blade guard is scary you should see the site carpenters free hand a long scribe cut on a table saw (no fence) or using them to cope a peice of skirting.

Speakign of lack of guarding, This spindle moulder video made me cringe
ooh that makes me shudder, all had to do was fix a full sacrificial face and do a push through, just the alone would have been much safer, one slip, one contaminant in the wood and OUCH! Best not to wear jewellery machining like the ring easy to get snagged.
 

Doug71

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For me one of the reasons to keep the guard on is for when those unexpected things happen.

We can all feel confident, in control and focussed (too focussed?) on what we are doing but something unplanned can happen and cause you to "Jump".

An example that I have had more than once is a power cut. My workshop has no natural light so if the power goes off you are suddenly plunged in to darkness. It's a bit of a shock when you are using the spindle moulder and suddenly without warning it goes pitch black, you just have to stand there and not move for a good few seconds while everything winds down.
 

Jar944

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This thread actually made me curious about sled usage. Are tablesaw sleds used in the uk?

021180108-main.jpg
 

TheTiddles

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This thread actually made me curious about sled usage. Are tablesaw sleds used in the uk?

View attachment 105485
Not really, why would you use one when you have a sliding table?

It is possible to make a safe sled, I’ve seen two, one made by Steve Maskery, the other by me.

In general they’re a way of reducing cutting depth and increasing danger, not a winning combination.
 

Inspector

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One can put a floating polycarbonate guard on the top of the front and back fences to make the sled safe and you'll note in that picture there is a cover over the back to keep thumbs safe when the blade comes through. One can also add hold downs and clamps easily enough to keep wood where it belongs and fingers away. Unfortunately there are almost no sliders in the hobby class here like you have so sleds are used frequently to good effect. Now if badly designed or handled carelessly then they just get added to the list of things that go cut in the shop.

Pete
 

Jar944

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Not really, why would you use one when you have a sliding table?

It is possible to make a safe sled, I’ve seen two, one made by Steve Maskery, the other by me.

In general they’re a way of reducing cutting depth and increasing danger, not a winning combination.
Interesting.

Sliding tables are very rare here, short of commercial shops with horizontal panel saws. Though even small commercial shops will have a tablesaw sled rather than a sliding saw.
 

DennisCA

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Most people here (europe) don't have sliding tables and use table saw sleds too. I have a sliding table and I use a sled at times. It's just a very handy little thing for doing cuts that would otherwise be unsafe even with a sliding table.
 

TRITON

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This thread actually made me curious about sled usage. Are tablesaw sleds used in the uk?
:LOL: :LOL: the cat amongst the pigeons.
I'll wager everyone's got a sled, EVEN Tiddles, who as we speak is rushing to fit a guard so he can post a pic :ROFLMAO::p Psst, your perspex sheeting is stored next to your plywood 😉

it comes with guards and instructions, take them off and cut your fingers off... personal choice.
Sigh....no it won't. and ill even wager that a fair number of accidents of fingers impacting saw blades did so with a guard in place. You reckon thats a fair assumption ?.
But as has been explained and pointed out umpteen times on this thread alone. Using push sticks and not having your hands within the recommended(by the HSE no less)300mm of the blade is the key. As is using long(minimum 450mm push sticks
You put your hands up close to the blade, guarded or not and you are asking for trouble. The blade just doesnt jump forward, like its possessed out the Omen.

Can you explain how you can impact your blade when your fingers are nowhere near it ?. Clearly not.

Oh yes, you can have an accident without a guard being fitted, nobody is disputing that, BUT, to do so you must break hse golden rules and have your hand close to the blade.

We should also point out that the saw blade projects through the workpiece a mere 1/8th of an inch when ripping or making cross cuts. So should you be crazy enough to actually place your hands on the workpiece and push it through the saw and maybe shut your eyes while doing so, and have your hand in line with the blade so you inadvertently impact it, you will receive a number of very very nasty cuts, but it is unlikely you will amputate anything.
I have to confess here that I break this rule, and have the blade project about 1/4", its so the dust clears off the tooth and the dust extraction on the guard gets it better. I know a pure rebel.

PS I dont wear a bike helmet either, unless of course im riding offroad.
 
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sometimewoodworker

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This is "guidance" and "should be used" is the operative expression, not "must be used".
In other words you can do what you like but are advised to use their suggestions, or if not to use alternative safety measures along the same lines or better. It mentions alternative guarding if the crown guard is taken off.
Some of their advice is not that good - an inadequate design of push stick and no suggestion of using two - which is probably the single most effective safety measure for TS, planer or spindle. And two drawings show hands on the workpiece where a second push stick should be used.
the HSE is clear
A circular saw should not be used for cutting a rebate
or groove unless the blade is effectively guarded.
This is because the normal saw guard cannot be used.
absolutely they do not prohibit dangerous activities, but if there is an incident (is is NOT an accident) you are in extremely deep dodo up dodo creek with no paddle and your insurance may be void because of your criminal stupidity.
 

DennisCA

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I watched the video more closely and it's 100% user error that leads to the accident, he reaches with his fingers to remove the piece he cut and touches the blade. Just utterly baffling, this is why you use two push sticks, nudge the piece away with one of them.

That GRRRipper or whatever it's called belongs in the trash.
 

TRITON

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but if there is an incident (is is NOT an accident) you are in extremely deep dodo up dodo creek with no paddle and your insurance may be void because of your criminal stupidity.
Sorry but it is an accident, because it WASN'T DELIBERATE. He didnt stuff his fingers into the blade deliberately did he ?. He didn't say to himself, 'You know what, I reckon today ill shove my hand into this whirling blade, just to see what happens' .
Ergo it was an accident.

And its not criminal stupidity, just plain old stupidity. As said, described and explained at great length, he didnt follow the golden rules. Push sticks, hands nowhere near the whirling blade.

If this helps you
Dictionary definition...
noun
noun: accident; plural noun: accidents
  1. 1.
    an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.
Some key words for you to take notice of. "Unintentionally" "Unexpectedly"

Have a nice day now, y'hear 😉
 
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Doug71

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Unfortunately too many people use sleds which is why the guard often comes off.

I always say it but if sleds were a good/safe idea the machinery manufacturers would be making them and falling over themselves to get you to buy their latest model. I don't know of any available commercially and the homemade element just adds to the dangers.

Just buy a slider, much safer.
 

shed9

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Sorry but it is an accident, because it WASN'T DELIBERATE. He didnt stuff his fingers into the blade deliberately did he ?. He didn't say to himself, 'You know what, I reckon today ill shove my hand into this whirling blade, just to see what happens' .
Ergo it was an accident.

And its not criminal stupidity, just plain old stupidity. As said, described and explained at great length, he didnt follow the golden rules. Push sticks, hands nowhere near the whirling blade.
If this helps you
Dictionary definition...
noun
noun: accident; plural noun: accidents
  1. 1.
    an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.
Some key words for you to take notice of. "Unintentionally" "Unexpectedly"

Have a nice day now, y'hear 😉
In the context of the HSE which is exactly what sometimewoodworker was referring to it is indeed an incident, it may be an incident of an accident but it is very definitely an incident. I'll forgo throwing the Webster definition of incident into the conversation as none of us are children and there is really no need to condescend each other. This is a discussion aimed at safety guards, not each other. The consequence of an incident involving the attendance of the HSE (i.e. the dangerous removal of blade guards) will usually result in criminality being brought into that equation irrespective of the accidental unintentional unexpectedness of the incident. Your golden rule of 'Push sticks, hands nowhere near the whirling blade', whilst good advice, does not devoid HSE criminal prosecution if there is no blade guard in the case of a blade guard being needed.

I get it, use your equipment how you want and no one is arguing with that but please refrain from reiterating the concept that safety guards are pointless on an open forum, a forum full of people looking to learn and absorb the collective experience from it. No amount of semantics will rationalise away the fact that safety guards help to prevent life changing events. Ignoring basic safety measures whilst using a table saw is dangerous to the operator and those around them, we should be discussing how to improve on safety guards being in place not the merit of them being there or not.
 

Jacob

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.....Your golden rule of 'Push sticks, hands nowhere near the whirling blade', whilst good advice, does not devoid HSE criminal prosecution if there is no blade guard .....
I think it does. You are not going to be prosecuted for doing something safely and not having an accident.
The rules make it clear that they are for guidance: "This information sheet contains notes on good practice which are not compulsory but which you may find helpful in considering what you need to do."
 
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TheTiddles

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Sorry but it is an accident, because it WASN'T DELIBERATE. He didnt stuff his fingers into the blade deliberately did he ?. He didn't say to himself, 'You know what, I reckon today ill shove my hand into this whirling blade, just to see what happens' .
Ergo it was an accident.

And its not criminal stupidity, just plain old stupidity. As said, described and explained at great length, he didnt follow the golden rules. Push sticks, hands nowhere near the whirling blade.

If this helps you
Dictionary definition...


Some key words for you to take notice of. "Unintentionally" "Unexpectedly"

Have a nice day now, y'hear 😉
Here’s an imaginary story for you...

A person has ten pints, gets in their car, doesn’t put their seatbelt on and crashes into a wall, they die. Is this an accident?

By your logic yes. They didn’t deliberately intend to crash.

By many others no. The person deliberately created an unsafe condition.

I’m not sure anyone cares that your thinking is incorrect, but it is by any standard of a competent person, which is the test.

At least we all agree taking guards off is a bad idea, which is the crux of the matter.

Aidan
 

JohnPW

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It's interesting that the HSE good practice/safe working practices seem to be recommendations and are not compulsory.


"This information sheet contains notes on good practice which are not compulsory but which you may find helpful in considering what you need to do."

"A push-stick should always be used when making any cut less than 300 mm in length or when feeding the last 300 mm of a longer cut. Push-sticks should be at least 450 mm long with a ‘bird’s mouth’ (see Figure 3)."

"A push-stick MUST be available to feed the last 300 mm of a cut and remove the cut piece and off-cut. Push-sticks should be at least 450mm long with a "bird's mouth"."

Note that they don't actually say you must use a push stick.

Obviously if an employer doesn't follow the safe working practices and an employee get injured, they could be taken to court for neglience.
 

shed9

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I think it does. You are not going to be prosecuted for doing something safely and not having an accident.
If the HSE are aware of guards being unnecessarily removed, irrespective of accidents occurring or not they will intervene and that includes the possibility of prosecution. Again, semantics will not dilute the overall legality of safety guards within a commercial environment.

Imagine if this was a thread about a pro shop of which the HSE was fully aware that safety guards were none existent but were prepared to let it slide because everyone could produce a push stick if asked, and they could all recite 'the golden rule'? Yes, it's part of the process but it doesn't totally replace other working practices. Would we be back slapping the HSE for being loosely pragmatic about safety or be concerned that the one body meant to protect people in the workplace was not fit for purpose?
 
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