Ice sheet returns

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dicktimber

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I see scientists have established that the ice sheet over the arctic has returned after the cold winter to 80's levels.

Could this spark a new tax to stop Global Cooling?

Did Jack Bauer have anything to do with it, or was it the Russians?
 
There's a vacant position coming up...

Arctic ice area has two divergent states. A summer state where ice is in decline that starts sort of mid to late April/early May and peaks (dips?) in late August/early September and a rest of the year state where it's cold and ice extent recovers and ends up pretty constant +/- a bit of natural variation - with ice area being at it's maximum about now. The interesting bit is the summer state.

The summer melt is particularly interesting because ice is highly reflective and bounces energy from the sun back out into the cosmos. Whereas cold water is particularly dark and absorbs energy readily - the more energy (temperature is a measure of energy ~ not a measure of how nice it is outside) absorbed at the arctic the more energy is available to drive increasingly unstable and potentially damaging weather patterns.

The Earth wobbles during it's orbit - so Arctic Winters are always pretty well out the sun and always cold.

Ice area 'Recovering' to similar extent to the 1980's or otherwise (it was a 1970's last year) during the maximum in April is a bit like comparing this winter's apple tree crop to those during the dormant seasons in the 1980s - i.e. it doesn't tell you much.

Area isn't the only factor. Thicker multi-year ice is considered more stable and resilient to melt. The combination of strong winds and increased temperatures leading to sharp declines in ice area in recent summers has eaten in to the multi year ice - resulting in a high ratio of more tenuous single year ice.

Hope this helps.
 
There are also two different forms of ice here, sea ice and plateau ice.
Plateau ice is dependent on precipitation, sea ice extent on a number of different factors. Much of this winter's increase is less to do with temperature than with wind direction, which this year, according to reports, has kept sea ice packed together rather than having it drifting south.
 
Jason,

Interesting

HOWEVER

Can we trust someone from East Anglia to tell the truth about climatic change :lol:
 
One of the interesting points about this year's arctic 'freeze' is that the NAO change that caused it also forced the Gulf Stream up the western side of Greenland, this was the main cause of the opening of the much heralded 'north west passage'.
This year is also being suggested as an El Nino year, we'll see.

Roy.
 
CryoSat2 (<- there's a live video feed), University College London's winning entry in an open science competition run by the European Space Agency, is clear to launch this afternoon (fingers crossed) with a major part of its mission being to take precise measurements of Arctic sea ice thickness.

You might remember that the original CryoSat was lost in 2005 when the launch rocket failed - the mission was deemed too valuable to lose and a rebuild was given the go-ahead. Hopefully this new version will fare better.

Much of this winter's increase is less to do with temperature than with wind direction

Winds can add a bit of variability into the mix (and helped push late March ice area up toward the 1979-2000 average for the time of year when it had otherwise been tracking low) but 99% of the annual winter freeze is due to the fact that it's cold in winter. (I'm not sure if you were trying to say that some of the variability wasn't due to temperature or that winter ice growth isn't more generally down to temperature)

The thing with the anthropogenic greenhouse gas signal is that, while natural variability can go either way in the short term, the anthropogenic influence should (assuming physics works the same way in the Arctic as it does in East Anglia) provide a constant nudge towards reducing ice area that will show up in longer term trends.
 
Seems reasonable. One of the problems that I find with the CO2 point though I have yet to see addressed, and it is this.
What would the temps be without it?
If the industrial rev kicked off GW would we still be seeing the the Thame's frost fairs etc without the extra CO2?

Roy.
 
As far as anyone can tell the anthropogenic greenhouse gas warming signal only really starts to stand out as noticeable in terms of adding to mean global temperatures from the mid 1970's. Before then temperatures can be readily ascribed to known natural influences. So no, you wouldn't expect to still see ice fairs on the Thames were it not for industrial activity.

That and Global Mean Surface Temperature is a measure of energy - not a measure of Thames ice fairs. Satellite measurements of mean global temperatures in January and February this year were exceptionally high, even though some places were experiencing particularly harsh winter weather. The UK is kept warm by the Gulf Stream pulling warmer seas and air up from the south - one of the possible outcomes of an increase in GMST is that the Gulf Stream will be less influential and the UK might even get colder.

Cryosat2 is go for launch - 10 minutes.
 
Stand out I agree, which would seem to me to infer that temps would have continued to fall for some time longer, or remained low for longer without it.
I have asked question this on a number of fora but no one seems to know the possible answer.

Roy.
 
Just to illustrate why the annual, premature trumpetings of ice recovery are frustrating - a sharp decline in May has put the Arctic ice extent at record a monthly low; so the picture now looks very different. Whether that sharp decline continues is, of course, anyone's guess; we don't know which way the wind will blow - but it will be warm this year, the ice isn't likely to grow back before winter and the higher ratio of fragile single year ice resulting from previous severe melts suggests that it's likely that this year's summer minimum might be very low again - eating further into the more stable multi-year ice. These very low years do have very real long term implications for arctic ice extent and the Earth's albido.

---

Hi Digit.
It's really not an easy question to answer - because (apart from me not being an expert - At best I'm an OU student, at worst an armchair expert) the Global Mean Surface Temp is a measure of energy in the climate system, not a measure of what the weather is like. What is being gauged is the energy available to drive weather systems and patterns - things like arctic oscillations, gulf streams, el-ninos and la-ninas. How those things work together to produce the weather (or even the local climate) we experience given more or less energy is beyond my powers of reckoning.

You also have to take into account that the Thames has changed physically - it was wider and slower in the C19th than today. And I'm also not sure that frost fairs were 'normal' rather than exceptional; Wikipedia thinks that there are only records of the Thames freezing over at London on 24 occasions in the last 400 years - and they seem like pretty newsworthy events when it happens. It might be that those really harsh winters that witnessed frost fairs were exceptionally cold - not part of a natural trend toward plummeting temperatures.

Industrial emissions of CO2 grow exponentially, or there abouts. Human industrial activity grows year on year and atmospheric CO2 accumulates - so each year it builds on the previous. It's the nature of steady state growth (as opposed to linear growth) to be pretty insignificant in its early stages only to kick in later (think doubling grains of rice for each square of a chess-board) - so I'm not sure there's much reason to think that the world would be doing much of anything really noticeably different to what it actually did before the mid C20th in terms of reacting to CO2 emissions. The increase in GMST in the first half of the C20th is readily attributable to natural influences.
 
How those things work together to produce the weather (or even the local climate) we experience given more or less energy is beyond my powers of reckoning.

And that of climate prognosticators as well.

Roy.
 
Jason Pettitt":1uml6m67 said:
There's a vacant position coming up...

Arctic ice area has two divergent states. A summer state where ice is in decline that starts sort of mid to late April/early May and peaks (dips?) in late August/early September and a rest of the year state where it's cold and ice extent recovers and ends up pretty constant +/- a bit of natural variation - with ice area being at it's maximum about now. The interesting bit is the summer state.

The summer melt is particularly interesting because ice is highly reflective and bounces energy from the sun back out into the cosmos. Whereas cold water is particularly dark and absorbs energy readily - the more energy (temperature is a measure of energy ~ not a measure of how nice it is outside) absorbed at the arctic the more energy is available to drive increasingly unstable and potentially damaging weather patterns.

The Earth wobbles during it's orbit - so Arctic Winters are always pretty well out the sun and always cold.

Ice area 'Recovering' to similar extent to the 1980's or otherwise (it was a 1970's last year) during the maximum in April is a bit like comparing this winter's apple tree crop to those during the dormant seasons in the 1980s - i.e. it doesn't tell you much.

Area isn't the only factor. Thicker multi-year ice is considered more stable and resilient to melt. The combination of strong winds and increased temperatures leading to sharp declines in ice area in recent summers has eaten in to the multi year ice - resulting in a high ratio of more tenuous single year ice.

Hope this helps.

I see...

So we are to believe the elusive '200 scientists', who tell us it's our fault the climate is warming. (While fortunes can be made by those who erect wind generators.)

Then, as soon as scientists notice things have bounced back in one fell swoop, because of a 'cold snap', well we shouldn't take any notice. (In case we wake up to the fact we are being hoodwinked, by 'enterprising' manufacturers of those wind generators. ) Why do we need so many by the way? Could it be they are inefficient and non cost-effective?

Or am I an old cynic?

I won't mention it again! Just so long as someone doesn't try to tell me our puny efforts at being 'green' have made a sudden and miraculous difference.

John :? (Very Confused!)
 
Like you jason I make no claims on expertise, and frankly I wish others would stop doing so. The government's chief scientific advisor recently blasted skeptics. He's an electrical engineer!

The summer melt is particularly interesting because ice is highly reflective and bounces energy from the sun back out into the cosmos.

Seen this statement many times, so not being an expert I look at it perhaps differently. Follow my logic please.
Solar radiation passing through the Earth's atmosphere warms the surrounding air by absorption, the longer that path the greater must be the absorption, the greater the warming.
Therefore solar radiation that is reflected back must have a longer path than that which is absorbed by growing crops, soil, mountains, buildings etc.

Roy.
 
Doesn't the light that hits land as opposed to ice get absorbed and reflect back infra red - in very, very simplistic terms. Hence why you can lean on a white garage door in the summer and daren't touch a black one
 
Yep, due to the moisture in the land. Same with low level clouds. High level clouds are composed of ice crystals and these reflect sunlight back.
A bit like a green house in summer, internal shading will prevent burning of plant foliage but not reduce the temp. For that the shade has to be on the outside.
If low level cloud was formed with ice crystals they too would act as reflectors. In recent years, I'm told, the planet's albedo has reduced due to a reduction in these high level clouds, this increases the planet's temp. What the experts are arguing about is whether the reduced cloud cover is due to GW or whether GW is due to the reduced cloud cover.
Head or tails?

Roy.
 
Digit":2ztvrlt8 said:
What the experts are arguing about is whether the reduced cloud cover is due to GW or whether GW is due to the reduced cloud cover.
Head or tails?

Roy.

Makes no difference maybe Roy. Whatever, the Taxman still collects! :lol:

John :wink:
 
Yep! I must confess that in recent years they have shown an extraordinary originality for generating new schemes to screw us.

Roy.
 
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