I lost an arm and a leg to a table saw

[HexusOdy]

Well figuratively speaking, all limbs are still present and correct.

But I wanted to ask for a general opinion on why table saws in the UK cost an arm and a leg and why there is a dearth of choice. So much so that many people go for old Wadkins, Startrites etc

I have an entry level TS, something I went for out of lack of time and choice a few years ago. I find myself wanting to upgrade but with the same lack of choice at the same high prices. If anything it seems the market has shrunk with Kity swallowed up, Xcalibur no longer seem to be sold by Woodford and there doesn't seem to be anyone trying to fill the hole Lyndhurst left with their Deft T30.

The UK market seems to consist of crappy 8" entry level hobby saws (brush motors, sub £200) then leap to £1000+ for anything with a 10" blade and Cast Iron top with the exception of Charnwood and their £850 W650 and their soon released £750 W629. I believe if you want a 10" TS with Cast Iron top the W629 is the cheapest, and its not cheap.

You can get a 10" TS with Cast Iron top in the US for $500 (£325). Ok sales tax is only about 10% so add a bit more for VAT, and we have 3% import duty, but still we should have an equivalent UK product for £399. So why don't we? The equivalent spec would be an Xcalibur TC10 and they are selling on Ebay for £800 refurbished.

I understand the US has a bigger market but economies of scale don't make something twice the price. When buying from China you might at most get 5% price break for volume. Australia has less than half the population of the UK yet you can buy a SIP 01332 clone from Carba-tec for £675 when they cost £1000+ here.

It seems there is the demand for more choice judging by the amount of questions regarding buying table saws on here. How come nobody is bringing in TS's from China at competitive prices from the likes of Mao Shan, Harvey and Frejoth? And how come those that are such as SIP, Charnwood, Axminster etc are making 50-75% margins on us? It's not like they are paying for TV advertising.

I might be asking for a flaming here, but it seems that when I look at the options other continents have were getting short shrift.

 

[beech1948]

+1 Right on.

After all Europe is a population of 250 million souls with the Uk just 68 million ish. I'm tired of always getting the short end of the stick from every greedy supplier.

 

[pcb1962]

I don't think the suppliers are making the kind of margin you think they are. If they were there would be more suppliers, and therefore more competition, and prices would fall as a consequence.
In the US every woodworker has a table saw as the centrepiece of their workshop*. It's not the same here, so the market for table saws is not just smaller in proportion to population, it's tiny, and Axminster and Charnwood seem to have most of that market. Even SawStop, with their huge marketing budget, don't think the market here is worth bothering with.

*(That is my perception from watching hundreds of Youtube videos)

 

[heimlaga]

It is the same thing in Finland too, only worse. Plenty of crappy super cheaply made yet overprized entry lever table saws. Then almost nothing.....until you get to full sized Altendorf sliders and their equivalents.

I think the root to the problem is that one or two big importers have more or less total monopoly. Their purchasing agents look for products that can be resold with the greatest possible profit. Selling rubbish to hobbyists who can be lured to buy new rubbish as soon as the old one fails is a very lucrative business.

Hovewer I don't wiew this as much of a problem. Lots of small joinery and cabinetmaking businesses close down now when the tiimes are bad. There are quite a few good quality compact saws on the secondhand market. They are designed and made for demanding professional users so from the wiewpoint of a hobbyist or part time professional who can afford to spend a little time doing a few repair there is no shortage of good saws.

 

[memzey]

I agree with everything the OP has said. I would recommend in my very limited experience though to pursue the old Wadkin or Startrite path, as they are superbly built and should see most of us out even when they might already be 50+ years old.

 

[RogerP]

...........
Hovewer I don't wiew this as much of a problem. Lots of small joinery and cabinetmaking businesses close down now when the tiimes are bad. There are quite a few good quality compact saws on the secondhand market. They are designed and made for demanding professional users so from the wiewpoint of a hobbyist or part time professional who can afford to spend a little time doing a few repair there is no shortage of good saws.

I agree that it is possible with a lot of searching about to find good used equipment. BUT not everyone wants the hassle of collecting large heavy lumps of cast iron from the other side of the country and then spending hours and hours doing the thing up. They want to do woodwork not machine refurbishment.

 

[Woodmonkey]

Agreed, although having bought the only real "mid-range" saw (charnwood w650) I have to say that if I could go back and do it again I would indeed look for a startrite etc. Even spending £800+ the quality is still not great I'm afraid.
.

 

[heimlaga]

...........
Hovewer I don't wiew this as much of a problem. Lots of small joinery and cabinetmaking businesses close down now when the tiimes are bad. There are quite a few good quality compact saws on the secondhand market. They are designed and made for demanding professional users so from the wiewpoint of a hobbyist or part time professional who can afford to spend a little time doing a few repair there is no shortage of good saws.

I agree that it is possible with a lot of searching about to find good used equipment. BUT not everyone wants the hassle of collecting large heavy lumps of cast iron from the other side of the country and then spending hours and hours doing the thing up. They want to do woodwork not machine refurbishment.

So do I...... but i rather spend some precious time on rebuilding old machines than spend even more time working overtime to earn enough money to buy new machines. I have done my math and found that I actually spend less time that way.

 

[HexusOdy]

I don't think the suppliers are making the kind of margin you think they are. If they were there would be more suppliers, and therefore more competition, and prices would fall as a consequence.
In the US every woodworker has a table saw as the centrepiece of their workshop*. It's not the same here, so the market for table saws is not just smaller in proportion to population, it's tiny, and Axminster and Charnwood seem to have most of that market. Even SawStop, with their huge marketing budget, don't think the market here is worth bothering with.

*(That is my perception from watching hundreds of Youtube videos)

I agree regarding the size of the market, on population alone the market is much smaller. But maybe there are not so many home workshops in the UK because the cost is so prohibitive. I think quite a lot of Brits have cheap hobbyist TS's for diy, that's why there are many more out there, I'm sure more of those buyers would consider making it a hobby if the next step up wasn't £800. If there was a good £500 TS on the market there would be many more.

I think the Charnwoods and Axminsters are making huge margins because they are following that logic. They keep the margins high because they know options are limited and they believe the market is small enough to get away with it. They also know they can buy stock and keep that sku live for longer than any other industry. There are saws on the market for 10 years. So they don't have to worry about obsolescence and run rates.

 

[HexusOdy]

...........
Hovewer I don't wiew this as much of a problem. Lots of small joinery and cabinetmaking businesses close down now when the tiimes are bad. There are quite a few good quality compact saws on the secondhand market. They are designed and made for demanding professional users so from the wiewpoint of a hobbyist or part time professional who can afford to spend a little time doing a few repair there is no shortage of good saws.

I agree that it is possible with a lot of searching about to find good used equipment. BUT not everyone wants the hassle of collecting large heavy lumps of cast iron from the other side of the country and then spending hours and hours doing the thing up. They want to do woodwork not machine refurbishment.

So do I...... but i rather spend some precious time on rebuilding old machines than spend even more time working overtime to earn enough money to buy new machines. I have done my math and found that I actually spend less time that way.

It's a decent strategy if your in a major city but out in the sticks (like Suffolk) it's like finding hens teeth.

 

[heimlaga]

It's a decent strategy if your in a major city but out in the sticks (like Suffolk) it's like finding hens teeth.

Where I live the population density is lower and the distances longer than anywhere in Suffolk. The East Highlands of Scotland would maybe be a bit similar........ though somehow I manage to find what I need within a radius of 400 kilometres. The combinatuion machine and the drill press have come by lorry that far. Everything else so far could be found within a possible pick up distance. Maximum range is 150 or 200 km with my 31 years old car.

Right across the field is a small factory making farm equipment. They are happy to take on small jobs when there are gaps between the bigger orders. I know several welders and machinists and engineers. I know several local scrap dealers. Daddy is a retired electrical engineer who did some installation work as a side income in his youth so he can fix electrical problems. If my tractor and front loader are too small to lift a machine I could call any of the farmers or contractors I know and ask for help. One of my friends runs a sawmill and timberyard and he often hears rumour about secondhand machines for sale even before they are advertised.
If anything makes a difference that would be networking. Not location.

Unfortunately some people do not have this kind of network......... so I agree that secondhand is not the best route for everyone.

 

[RogerP]

...............
Unfortunately some people do not have this kind of network......... so I agree that secondhand is not the best route for everyone.

... and I'm one of them.

No network at all and no friends who are involved in engineering or woodworking.

It's just me and a shed and what I glean on line.

 

[DennisCA]

It's a decent strategy if your in a major city but out in the sticks (like Suffolk) it's like finding hens teeth.

Distances are much less of a problem, I don't know why everything has to be right next door? I don't have a problem and I live near heimlaga, this is the stickiest parts of the sticks compared to the UK which is by my standards one big urban area and everything practically is next door.

I had to arrange a truck to get my bandsaw shipped a few hundred km to my door, and I got my table saw from Sweden. It's not that expensive, all in all I spent 1600 euros on a bandsaw and table saw with freight and repairs. Probably had to spend 12-15000 euros to buy modern equivalents. And they have one thing that modern, even modern better hobbyist machines don't have, they don't deprecate in value.

 

[HexusOdy]

I applaud those with the will and bravery to commit to an older machine. For me the biggest issue with buying an old machine that's some distance away is not knowing what the quality is like before committing to an ebay purchase.

But all these stories also prove my point. We shouldn't have to go to such lengths to get an acceptable machine in Europe.

 

[Eric The Viking]

It's the in Europe bit... or at least being in such a high-cost economy, combined with the smaller market. The overheads here, for everyone involved - shippers, importers, carriers, retailers, etc. - are so much greater than the USA and the market is that much smaller. It's a double whammy.

FWIW, those SawStop tables are things of beauty, even ignoring the safety aspects. But even in the USA they are pricey.

 

[Bigdanny]

I agree with Heimlaga and Dennis. I have bought some cracking machines in the last 8 years.Cast iron machine 40+ years old. Table saw £100, Startrite P/T £100, Wilson 16 inch £300, Sagar Spindle £100, Moretens Spindle £150, Power feed Comatic £150 Wadkin 16" PT barter for a trailer £300 and lots more. I havent factored in transport cost to this but I still get a better machine after some TLC and paint than what I can get here 2nd hand in Bulgaria and many times less money than new. I have bought a lot from Fleabay but I have been patient and bought when the time is right, its just a matter of keeping your eyes open and building up your contacts/ network.
Patience is a great virtue.
HTH
Danny

 

[deema]

The outlay for a decent table saw is significant, but equally the sale price of a well kept saw is also very high. Looking at a Sedgwick TA375, on fleabag a new one can be bought for circa £2,800. A really nice secondhand one just a few years old is selling for over £2000. If you bought one and held onto it long enough the chances are that by the time you come to sell it as the stiffness in the joints over comes the will to produce shavings you are highly likely to get more than your outlay back.

Having some experience in a different sector but stil in mechanical devices in the USA it struck me at the time as a society that buys very cheaply (usually of significantly lower quality than what is normal is Europe), but has little interest in anything secondhand, a truly throw away society. The reason from bringing up the point, is that IMO the cost of ownership, ie. The difference between what you buy something for and what after using it you can sell it for is about the same, only we enjoy products that are safer, higher quality of manufacture and are designed to last.

 

[Mcluma]

This is my observation

In mainland Europe there is not that much interest in cast iron. The likes of Mafell and the mft from festool are more in demand, or they buy a Hammer, I myself have a Elektra Beckum - the German / Belgium engineering is more wanted than a block of steel.

This then reduced the overall market for cast iron stuff, which will push the price up

Its amazing when I compare German / Dutch / Belgium WWforum, and see how much an average hobby woodworker is willing to spend on a decent set-up compared to UK

 

[HexusOdy]

It's the in Europe bit... or at least being in such a high-cost economy, combined with the smaller market. The overheads here, for everyone involved - shippers, importers, carriers, retailers, etc. - are so much greater than the USA and the market is that much smaller. It's a double whammy.

This is kind of my point, is any of that true or do we just believe it because were told it?

I'm a Brit and I work in import and export for a German company, mainly in electronics. I do a lot of buying and shipping from Asia (which lets face it is where everything is made) mainly to Europe but also to the US. I don't see any difference in costs other than the US has hardly any products that incur import duty, but that's only 3% in Europe on most workwork machines so it can't be blamed for the difference.

It costs pretty much the same to ship a container from Shenzhen or Nanjing to Europe or the US so that's not the difference.

Road freight charges to get the container from the port to its final destination and then each pallet to the end user are very comparable. In fact I find US can cost more due to distance form coast to coast. From Germany I can ship a pallet to most European countries for about €100 give or take.

And if you look at the whole of Europe as a market we have 3 times the population (750 mil vs 250 mil) in a 3rd of the space (3.7 mil km2 vs 9.1 mil km2). So I think the market must be there too.

 

[Eric The Viking]

It's the in Europe bit... or at least being in such a high-cost economy, combined with the smaller market. The overheads here, for everyone involved - shippers, importers, carriers, retailers, etc. - are so much greater than the USA and the market is that much smaller. It's a double whammy.

This is kind of my point, is any of that true or do we just believe it because were told it?

I'm a Brit and I work in import and export for a German company, mainly in electronics. I do a lot of buying and shipping from Asia (which lets face it is where everything is made) mainly to Europe but also to the US. I don't see any difference in costs other than the US has hardly any products that incur import duty, but that's only 3% in Europe on most workwork machines so it can't be blamed for the difference.

It's all the other stuff, not the visible costs:

• Productivity (output per hour and per worker),
• Overheads (taxes),
• Bureaucracy (expensive rules that businesses have to follow,
• Poor quality services (because tax money is spent inefficiently and ineffectively),
• Poor education and qualifications of staff (because tax money, etc.),
• Cost of property in the UK (commercial and residential)...

You can probably go on adding to that list (or slicing+dicing depending on how you view it). In the USA it is far easier to start up a small business, and individuals have greater disposable income (gross generalization, I know), and it's one vast homogenous market, using a single language of commerce and one currency.

Given we're talking about table saws, there's also the 'pioneer spirit', which nowadays reduces to "I'm responsible for my family and property". Get away from the east coast, and there's much more expectation of self-sufficiency, which includes DIY, and, although there's the 'metrosexual' thing in the cities, in most of the USA, the traditional family is much more common than here - women make the home; men do the construction/mechanical stuff, etc..

There's also more space per person (than the UK - I realise the pop. density of Europe varies hugely), so houses have large garages and space for workshops, etc. Here there's much more of an expectation that government should do more and in the UK at least, we're cramped for space. They also typically build individual residential properties out of wood, rather than brick, stone or blockwork, and historically always have.

There are both good and bad economic aspects to the Dollar (for the record, I'm wholly against the Euro, and we're seeing right now that the concept is deeply flawed in an area as diverse as Europe), but it does save money for producers in minimizing transaction costs.

This is a post of gross generalizations, I know, but the transatlantic cultural differences are real. It's also the case that the US economy is recovering faster than ours is here.

E.