Home made kitchens and windows advice please

[angelboy]

I'm at the early stages of building my own house and whilst some tasks are very much left to the pros there's a number of tasks that I'm looking forward to giving a go myself. I'm not going to try and kid myself but I really believe that a good part of the tasks ahead is to make sure I have the correct tools to do the job. This being the case I'm looking to set up a small workshop where I'll be making a kitchen and even having a go at making some timber windows and doors.

I've looked into costs of certain tools and also the final costs to have pro produced products but only very briefly so this is where I need advice from you guys who are already experienced.

A jeldwen pine window glazed for 1800mm x 1200mm in the style I'm looking at is around £500 (small discount with a builders merchants). The quality of these windows are a little rough around the edges. Similar prices for the Magnet Trade windows.

A mayport oak double sliding sash effect (top hung) of similar sizes comes in around £1100. I've never seen these but I'd assume that they'd be much better than the jeldwen.

What would you say are the costs of materials, softwood and hardwood to make up a similar windows?

I'd say for the Jeldwen I'd be looking at over £10,000 with the discounts for my house (£20,000+ for the Oak which is just toooo much for me).

Same with the kitchens. I'm looking at beaded face frames, raised panel doors, to be painted so MDF maybe (?) with a solid cabinet (wood suggestions - beech ply maybe?). I'm planning a huge 3.6m x 2.4m central island with a 4m larder storage over the fridges and a 5m straight run with a mantel over the range. I've seen off the shelf prices for similar for £420/linM making the cost around £10,000+ for our kitchen.

Again, what would you say the costs are for materials to make it myself?

I'd assume a cost £3,000 - £4,000 for the workshop buying decent used gear (£500 table saw, £500 planer/thicknesser etc this kind of price range) so factoring this in what kind of savings can I realistically make?

Any thoughts or realistic advice?
(please try to keep it positive otherwise don't bother..... I already know I'm an silly person but an silly person with drive and determination!)

 

[rileytoolworks]

For a kitchen that size, from the company I work for, in the materials you've specified, I'd say around £45,000 minimum (including tops but NOT appliances).
Do it yourself if you can.

Adam.

 

[BigMac]

Can't help too much as not really done anything similar but...

Are you really sure you want plywood for the cabinets? MFC is lighter, more stable, an immense amount less work in finishing and you can buy ready built cabinets for less than you'll spend on materials to make them from Ply. The biggy is the finishing, how are you intending to do the finishing on that kind of quantity of cabinets? Have you factored a spray booth setup into your costings (and space given the quantity) for the workshop?

For substantial windows and doors in quantity I would have also thought a spindle moulder and dedicated blocks was pretty much essential. You can always flof it again afterwards so if you buy second hand shouldn't be much cost in it.

Materials I'd have a look at British Hardwoods (www.britishhardwoods.co.uk I think) who have pretty clear prices on line which should allow you to spec it up.

 

[RogerS]

.....
For substantial windows and doors in quantity I would have also thought a spindle moulder and dedicated blocks was pretty much essential. You can always flof it again afterwards so if you buy second hand shouldn't be much cost in it.

Spot on. But do please get some training in its' use.

Materials I'd have a look at British Hardwoods (www.britishhardwoods.co.uk I think) who have pretty clear prices on line which should allow you to spec it up.

You don't say where you are located but you could also consider buying in sawn from a large timber merchants and prep it yourself. That will save you time.

Don't forget that Building Regs change at the end of this month for windows. You can comply provided that all your double glazing units have a central u-value of 1.2. This does push up the price a little. For example down my way a couple of dgu's 700 x 1500mm toughened 4:12:4 will cost £84 + Vat. If I specify Planitherm which will give me the 1.2 then the price goes up to £98 + Vat for the two.

 

[angelboy]

Big Mac - Thanks for your thoughts.

I've just found a supplier of MFC that has various laminates so probably would be a better option. Can't use it for the drawer boxes as I want to dovetail the joints.

With regards the finishing, I'm in no rush to build the house so by the time I get to spraying I'll be able to use a number of empty and clean rooms as a dedicated booth.

I've been looking into spindle moulders but some of the costs are pretty scary! Someone showed me the Trend window module - £3000 for the blocks and the machine needed to run the blocks has to be pretty hefty so another few grand at least. I was following a thread where the advice was to buy an older machine (wadkin/sedgewick) rather than a new cheap machine (Fox) which could be bought for £600-£800. I would get training regardless what I bought as I'm not intending loosing body parts for cheaper windows!

I'll have a look at British Hardwoods. I'd assume that the prices are the RRP so to speak and that it's the norm to ask for discounts?

RogerS - I'm near Retford if you have any idea which merchants to buy from.

There seems to be much confusion with the new regs so I've just called the LABC and heard it from the horse mouth, although I didn't ask about the 1.2 center pane value. Basically I can make them myself as long as I have an energy rating calculated from the center pane, pane edge and timber edge. One calc should be sufficient for all the windows as this is a paper exercise forced by the EU so the LA should be 'understanding'. If I can find some suitable U-Value software then I'll buy it and supply my own calcs. Job done!

 

[RogerS]

.....
..... Basically I can make them myself as long as I have an energy rating calculated from the center pane, pane edge and timber edge. One calc should be sufficient for all the windows as this is a paper exercise forced by the EU so the LA should be 'understanding'. If I can find some suitable U-Value software then I'll buy it and supply my own calcs. Job done!

You don't even need to bother with that. 4.24 in document ADL2B-2010 says that as long as the centre-pane u-value is 1.2 then you're OK.

 

[Dibs-h]

And if it's glass for upper floors - get self cleaning glass. BioClean by Saint Gobain (if you are talking Planitherm) - awesome stuff. Just keep silicone based sealants away from it tho.

HIH

Dibs

 

[Max Power]

Virtually everyone makes kitchen carcases from mfc and its absolute rubbish. You couldn't come up with a less suitable material to use in a damp environment and other than your bathroom the kitchen is going to be the dampest room in the house.
Anyone intending to produce a quality product for themselves would be well advised to use birch ply. Yes its more expensive and requires finishing but will outlast mfc ten fold

 

[angelboy]

Virtually everyone makes kitchen carcases from mfc and its absolute rubbish. You couldn't come up with a less suitable material to use in a damp environment and other than your bathroom the kitchen is going to be the dampest room in the house.
Anyone intending to produce a quality product for themselves would be well advised to use birch ply. Yes its more expensive and requires finishing but will outlast mfc ten fold

Right, again, interesting and advice I'd heard from another source.

What do you think would be the difference in cost of using birch ply against MFC? and how would you finish them?

 

[jasonB]

Latvian Birch ply will be approx three times the price of a sheet of 18mm white MFC, four times for Finnish and then there is the cost of finishing on top best sprayed with some form of 2k lacquer

If you are wanting a kitchen on a budget then MFC is fine, its never going to get wet enough to degrade unless you have a leak and thats likely to be restricted to the sink base unit. With the use of plastic legs on kitchens carcases these days there is little risk of the unit getting wet unlike the old style ones where the carcase sides stood on the ground.

Jason

 

[Oryxdesign]

All of these materials are subject to damage if all the edges aren't carefully sealed including ply. I don't like mfc personally but it does serve it's purpose well and there are some that don't look too bad. If they're not strong enough for your requirements maybe mfmdf would do.

If you do decide you would like a real timber cabinet veneered mdf would give you the look you are after but is much more stable, they do beech veneered and you can lip it with solid for extra durability if required.

I wouldn't do a raised panel in mdf, too much dust and fluffy stuff to deal with, it's fine for a flat panel though.

Hope that helps Simon

 

[Chems]

You could defiantly make savings, but its unlikely the first stuff you knock out is really going to be the stuff you want to have for ever!

 

[angelboy]

Thanks for the comments.

I'm not going to jump right into the deep end and I quite prepared for a quite a few dodgy pieces before I get it right.

 

[jeffinfrance]

i can get oak vennered blockboard here 100euros for a 2.5m x 1.5m 19mm thick panel. must be able to get it there too.

much better product to work with and more stable.

leave the mfc in b&q where it belongs!

jeff

 

[chris_d]

For example down my way a couple of dgu's 700 x 1500mm toughened 4:12:4 will cost £84 + Vat. If I specify Planitherm which will give me the 1.2 then the price goes up to £98 + Vat for the two.

Hi Roger,

Would you mind sending me your supplier's contact details via PM?

Thanks,
Chris