Health and Safety

[caretaker]

I use a table saw for cutting my tenons and have removed the guard as I find this gets in my sight lines.
Is there a better way of keeping my fingers out of the blade than this guard.
One of the reasons I removed it is I use the saw table as an extension to my work bench and it makes a longer bench, I do wind down the blade when not in use.
I know this is dangerous but I am very aware of the danger.

 

[DomValente]

Reg, a lot of people with nine fingers were aware too, it takes only a split second of inattention.
Why not make a jig for your router to make the tenons

Dom

 

[mailee]

Well Reg, I am in the same boat as you and use the table saw as an assembly table too. I do not have a crown guard on my saw although I don't use it for tennons. Instead I use a brilliant jig from the mind of our very own Steve Maskery with the router and I can't fault it, perfect tennons every time and pretty quick too! I found that I often used the table saw to cut grooves for drawer bottoms and I just couldn't do this with the crown guard on. Oh and it won't take a dado set (wash my mouth out) as the arbour is too short. I can confirm that I have had the saw this way for about four years now and I still have all my digits. (Touch wood)

 

[Scrit]

I can confirm that I have had the saw this way for about four years now and I still have all my digits. (Touch wood)

When I started riding motorcycles in the late 1960s you could ride a motorbike round for years without a hemet on....... Still didn't make it a safe or sensible thing to do, IMHO. Still have my head intact, but then I started waering a helmet early on :wink:

Scrit

 

[Steve Maskery]

I'm going to stick my neck out here...

1 I'm NOT advocating using an unguarded tablesaw. OK? , but
2 I don't think that the average US style crown guard is very good at protection. Yes it's relatively good if you put your hand down from above, but unless you faint while operating it, I suggest that it is more likely that your fingers will enter from the front or side. So I see no reason why the guard shouldn't be removed provided that it is replaced with a method which is at least as good, and preferably better, that the protection offered by the manufacturer.

So, if you are going to cut tenons this way, you need to design your jig so that you can cut tenons whilst keeping the blade itself untouchable.

I'd do this by building a sliding carriage that travels in one of the mitre slots, with the workpiece clamped to an upright face, and the handle on the other side of the face. The face would be long enough and high enough so that the blade could not be reached from that side at any point on its travel, and I'd have another vertical board mounted to the fence on the other side of the tenon, close onogh to the blade to prevent finger access, but clear enough to let the tenon cheek fall without getting kickback.

I do have a jig that I built when god was a boy, from plans in FWW, but although it works quite well, it is totally unguarded, and now it scares me, so it's actually many years since I've used it.

I have actually been thinking about this for a little while, as I have a new tablesaw with a crown guard, and a video to make! But this jig won't be in the video, nor probably the second one, but if I get round to doing one specifically on the tablesaw, I'll probably develop such a jig simply because there are so many dodgy versions already published.

In the meantime, why not cut them with a router? There will be another such jig in GW in the next couple of months or so, I believe.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Steve Maskery]

Mailee, thanks for the plug!
As regards to guarding your saw, have you seen the way Philly does his when grooving? His site has lots of pictures.

Cheers
Steve

 

[engineer one]

what about making a polycarbonate cover that is fixed from above, and fixed on a long arm to one side. springloaded it would be safe and make life easier.
other thing is to make a cross cut sled with a polycarbonate cover over the saw slot.

and like scrit i wore a crash helmet on my bike from the get go, saw too many brains leaning against the roadside to want mine there.

paul :wink:

 

[Scrit]

Hi Steve

I don't think that the average US style crown guard is very good at protection. Yes it's relatively good if you put your hand down from above, but unless you faint while operating it, I suggest that it is more likely that your fingers will enter from the front or side.

Firstly I don't think it's a US style at all, wasn't the crown guard invented by the French?....... Anyhow, part of the reason for having a big bright yellow or orange or red (or whichever colour) guard is to give the operator a visual warning of where the blade is. That's why industrial machinery (not just woodworking machinery) all has yellow guards where blades are. The guard also provides a tactile warning that you digits are getting too close for comfort as well. Take the guard off and no visual or tactile warning, and so more accidents. That is not a matter of conjecture, but is a fact borne out by accident statistics compiled both hjere and in the USA. The other fact is that the a large number of accidents involving circular saws involve either laceration or amputation caused by entry from the top/front of the blade. Side entry rarely comes into it. The other reason for guarding a blade from above is of course that if anything is dropped onto an unguarded spinning blade it is instantly transformed into a high velocity projectile......... and once again a crown guard can in some instances partially protect the operator from a projectile (kick-back) injury. We've known about this in the UK for a long time. The first Factories Act calling for crown guards on circular saws was, I believe, in 1929, hardly a time when worker safety was uppermost in many employers' minds.

So I see no reason why the guard shouldn't be removed provided that it is replaced with a method which is at least as good, and preferably better, that the protection offered by the manufacturer.

Attaboy! So when are we going to see overhead SUVA-type crown gurads mandated, then?

In the meantime, why not cut them with a router?

Or for that matter on a bandsaw?

I'm constantly amazed by the number of people who'll happily say "I've been doing this for so and so years and I haven't had an accident" - they always miss that small but important word, "yet"

Scrit

 

[Steve Maskery]

Scrit
As ever you are spot on.

What I find particularly difficult with a crown guard (and I meant on US-style machines - most of the ones here seem to have the more-enclosed style plastic guards) is that the guard seems to be miles above the blade. Yes it's visible, yes it's some protection against missiles but I'd feel much safer if I knew it was an effective barrier between my fingers and the blade.

I've got a plan in mind to make a cantilevered overhead guard which will be mounted on the fence. That way it wouldn't need to be as huge as is needed for mounting off the far corner of the back rail. The problem will be that it will need to be adjusted every time I move the fence, but I think if I make it quick-action, I can live with that.

 

[Anonymous]

I came across this some time ago. Dont know if anything has come of it yet as a retro fit item.
www.sawstop.com/how-it-works-overview.htm

 

[Steve Maskery]

One other thing about unguarded blades on a tablesaw (brain jogged by Scrit pointing out that the guard is brigth yellow for a reason)

It may be a 10" blade, but from where I'm standing it's only 1/8"... much less visible.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Freetochat]

It seems to me that guards are designed and fitted for a purpose, and that is to help in preventing injury. Yes, there are times when the guards get in the way or prevent an operation, but that only means that another way has to be found. Grooving can be done by router or spindle, tennons by bandsaw, router, radial arm etc. Scrit writes the most important message, you may get away with injury, you may be lucky, but is a tennon joint cut on an unguarded tablesaw really worth the loss of a finger?

 

[Scrit]

I came across this some time ago. Dont know if anything has come of it yet as a retro fit item.
www.sawstop.com/how-it-works-overview.htm

I doubt that the SawStop will ever be a retro fit item. For starters there is a physical brake mechanism (the thing which holds the cartridge) to be installed and the SawStop saw bench is quite heavily built to accommodate the braking stresses, so if you want a SawStop you'll have to bite the bullet and buy one of their premium-priced saws. |Despite promises there's still only a 10in table saw available - no contractor saw or 12in machine. It seems an odd way of going about things, to my mind, though - to build a machine at a premium price to safeguard you from injuring yourself whilst doing an operation which can be more safely done in another way....... and it still doesn't protect you from a kick back (in fact SawStop supply a long through fence on the machine, a contributing factor to kickback).

From an arithmetic point of view in 1/200 sec a 10in 72 tooth blade still moves through about 1/4 revolution, or some 18 teeth will partly pass through your hand with an initial peripheral velocity of around 38 metres/sec (circa 84 mph). It may well save you from an amputation, but you'll still bleed (from experience possibly copiously). As a point of comparison I had 13 stitches in my left thumb 4 or so years back from a pin router accident - 20 lacerations in under 1/30 second. It doesn't take that long to mess up a hand, I can tell you. That's why people like me say that rather than trying a sticking plaster approach (i.e. the SawStop methodology) primary safety and safe working practice is probably much more effective overall.

Scrit

 

[mailee]

OOPS! point taken Scrit. I will check out Philly's site though. Have to admit although I have never had an accident with the table saw 'Yet' it only takes a moments lack of concentration. If i can find something that will allow me the freedom I need on the table saw I will of course use it. I have had a run in with a hand held circular saw once but luckily escaped with just a few stitches. The idea of one that hangs from above sounds more like a good idea to me and could be just what I require. No problem on the plug Steve, that is the best and most used jig I have in my collection and has saved me so much time, thanks. :wink:

 

[Roger]

This is a very interesting site for unguarded saw blades. He's designed several that fit the U.S. style saw models:

Shark Guard

I have the problem of a U.S. made saw with only the 'Splitter'. I do use a short Fence fitted to the full length mode, but I would still like the Riving Knife if someone ever invents an after-market one that fits!

 

[caretaker]

I have read all the helpful advise from all and think i would like to have a go at making a jig for my router to make a tenon joint.
I had a look at Steve Maskery site but it would not load the jig page.
Is there a site anyone can recommend to me for router jigs for tenons.
I do the mortices with the router and a home made jig but do not know how to do a tenon.
I will keep trying Steve's site as well.
As for my table saw, i am using a sledge for cutting that has a finger guard but am still a bit dubious about my fingers when using it.
I am on section 9 on my conservatory, only ten more to do.

 

[Steve Maskery]

My guess is you are using Firefox. I don't know why, but some of the pages don't load. If you use IE there is no problem.

I'm about to delete my site any time now (well, soon, although it's not a top priority) so get it while you can!

Cheers
Steve

 

[Wanlock Dod]

Just to add my tuppen'orth to the debate, the only time I've injured myself with a table saw I was using it unguarded. That's not to say I haven't used it safely on loads of occasions, but that's not the point is it.

I agree with Scrit on the guards issue, its more an issue of having a reminder that you shouldn't go near there. I have a feeling that anybody in need of protection from falling onto or into the saw blade should probably turn all the machines off and wait for normal gravitational services to be resumed, or remove the angry Ogre (or what ever else might be flinging you towards a running tablesaw).

I found the jigs OK on Steve's site, and I'm hoping he doesn't let it drift away into the ether too soon (think I'm using IE :roll: )

Cheers,

Dod

 

[caretaker]

I have printed all the help from the site at work and will find a corner to read it all.
Yes I am using fire fox at home, do you think i should change back?
The site was great as well.

 

[Alf]

Yes I am using fire fox at home, do you think i should change back?

No! Steve should learn to write proper code :wink: :lol: