Have I bitten off more than I can chew - I like a challenge

[Timmo]

Hi Gents,
Well OK - A friend of the wife is into the whole horse thing and she has one of these big driven horse box type efforts...I don't know if you guys have seen them but the horses go in the back and there is a small living area in the front..
Now apparently they charge a fortune for getting this things all kitted out with a kitchen and such like but as she knows I am a bit handy, she has asked me whether I would like to do it for her
Well I have the time (currently not working) and have the enthusiasm and hopefully most of the tools I will need but...I have absolutely no knowledge of working on this kind of thing...and I have never even fitted a kitchen..although I am confident I would be able to...
So anyway, I came back and had a quick search on my favourite forum but couldn't really find anything so I would like to ask for some help / advice / suggestions from you guys...
The lady did pay to get some level of "fitting out" done in the living bit but after seeing it today I think it is p**s poor...There is some kind of white panelling on the ceiling but there was some kind of white plastic trim covering up the joins and at the edges where it meets the walls..well this appeared to just be glued on and as they get a bit hot inside all this trim has come off...Is that usual? There appears to be all this blue carpet type material on the walls and where there are cut outs around the windows it hasn't even been cut out neatly..There is also all this aluminium trim around which isn't too bad I guess.
It does have a luton front where they can sleep if they chose too but at the moment its just filled with tot.
Now as this is a box van type construction with the steel supports at what looked like 16inch centres (although I could be out on that), these are what are used for load bearing right?
What she basically wants is a little corner kitchen bit with sink and hob, some cupboards up on the wall..a mirror, some flooring to go on top of the plywood that is the current flooring (she has bought this stuff that looks like a cross between laminate floor and lino and has a self adhesive back!!).
So what I would basically like to ask first is whether there is anyone out there who has experience of working on these things who would be willing to help me out by answering all the daft questions I am likely to be asking.
I am sorry that I didn't take any pictures when I went...I will do that next time..I am still trying to work out whether to bring it home and work on it on the drive (and upset the neighbours) or to take tools and work on it where she keeps it (I do have access to electricity there) so although that will be a bit of a pain at least I won't upset the neighbours..
A few questions that come to mind immediately are:
How do I secure things to the metal frame? Some sort of rivets or bolts or something?
Should I leave the carpet on the walls or replace it with something nicer? and what would that be? (Some I saw on the internet had some kind of wood look panelling that looked quite neat...)
How can I fix back this white trim on the ceiling edges / joins or should I replace with something better..fit some kind of floating ceiling or something?
Does this laminate floor / lino seem like a good idea for the floor and can it be stuck straight down on the existing plywood or should I lay a fresh plywood subfloor (which at least will be clean!!) and put the lino on that?

I am trying to find info on the internet but am drawing blanks at the moment so if anyone can give advice or point me in the direction of any literature then that would be appreciated..
Cheers
Timmo

 

[wizer]

Tusses recently posted a camper van that he was fitting out. Seems like a similar job. Also have a look at boat building type forum/websites. Similar ideas.

 

[Tusses]

wow - thats a lot of text !

I'll come back and read it later !

 

[Tusses]

ok - I'm back now, was cutting the lawn - now cant see - got grass cuttings in my eye :shock:

so

yes, I can help a little. I have a 'little' experience with camper vans and narrow boats.

flooring - working from the bottom up - what is it ? is it all wood with a waterproof membrane on the roadside (underneath) ?

the sides / walls - what are the metal frame sections made from (size / material)

roof - wood or metal battons ? is it translucent glass fiber / ally / steel ?

any electrics installed ? 12v / leisure battery / 240v hook up ? 240v inverter ?

any water installed ? fresh and waste ?

glue - yes it comes unstuck when it gets hot ! you need high temperature adhesive - find a local coach builder (yes they are still about ! ) try a caravan center and ask if there is a local place that does the repairs etc

tell you what - I'm about to start a new camper build - I'll start a thread and posts wips from start to finish.

what timescale have you got to finish the job ?

 

[Timmo]

Thanks Rich...
I can't actually answer many of your questions at the moment...There is no major rush to get the job done..they have had it like this for 2 years now(!)
I really should get some pictures and then I can best show what it looks like at the moment..pretty much all of the frame works is covered with white panels (ceiling) and some sort of capetetted board (walls)..What is underneath the floor I do not know as I I can see is the plywood which has been screwed down but looks secure though..
I did just take wIzer's advice and found another forum that you probably know about (SBMCC - Self build motor caravanners club) and am finding some useful info there..
You mention about using high temperature glue...That sounds like what is required..
Above the white ceiling panels I am told there is a translucent glass fibre roof but this is "blocked out" by the white panels to keep the temperature down...
Whether there are metal or wooden battens I really do not know..this is all very knew to me so I will have to go and have a closer look sometime early next week...Its a whole science and hobby in itself isn't it....
Cheers
Timmo

 

[Digit]

Anybody out there familiar with the Lambourne Horse Transport Company?
I worked on their horse boxes, but it is a long time ago but ask away, I'll do my best.

Roy.

 

[Timmo]

Hi Roy,
Thanks for the offer....my immediate questions are these:
1. The horsebox has been kitted out to a certain extent - it has carpet on the walls at som white panels on the ceiling..But how are these things secured to the metal frame? Is there usually some wooden battens underneath that?
2. If I wanted to put up some cupboards or something that weighed a bit then how would I go about that? I am guessing that I cannot just secure anything to the metal ribs as that would not be strong enough?
3. I guess that if one was doing this with a blank canvas then a load of wooden battening would be secured to the metal frame work with the Sikaflex stuff or something then then everything is secured to that?

Any insight you could give me into how these things are normally done would be greatly appreciated..
Thanks
Timmo

 

[Digit]

Question one I can't answer 'cos I don't know what the panels are made of. If they are light enough adhesives will have been used, but even lightweight panels should have some insulation behind them. Condensation would be a big problem without it. Any sign of screws or other panel fastening?
Question two. Hanging cupboards or floor standing?
Question three. The term 'Luton' van is obtained from the Vauxhall Bedford van, Luton form, of many years ago, on the straight sided ones we used 'felt' strips glued to the ribs and ply glued to to that, again with insulation in the voids.
Any curvatures normally had a wooden subframe attached to the structure. That way you are not limited to attachment to any ribs as you can screw through the side panels. The screws were then hidden, and waterproofed, with an aluminium beading over the top with sealant in between.
It the present work has not had insulation installed I would suggest that you rip it out and start again.
A lot of questions will probably answer themselves as you get stuck in to the job.

Roy.

 

[Timmo]

Thanks Roy,
I appreciate I am being a bit vague at the moment and I am sure things will become a lot clearer once I get stuck in..I am just trying to gather as much intel as possible...Apparently the work that has already been done was done by professionals but that is hard to believe when someone like me looks at the workmanship and picks hoels in it..especially where all the plastic trim covering the screws on the ceiling has just fallen down because they must have used the wrong glue or something like Tusses mentioned above...
It would not surprise me at all if there was no insulation behind the panels but taking them all off would make for a bigger job, although sometimes it is best to start a fresh isn't it...
Are you aware of this sikalfex glue or Tiger seal or something that can apparently be used for glueing wood battens to the metal framweork very strongly indeed and you have to destroy the wood or try and cut through the glue to get it off becasue it is that strong...
I'll get some pictues anyway.
Thanks again
Timmo

 

[Digit]

Take some of the screws out of the roof and see if they are wood screws or self tapping screws, that will at least tell you if they have attached to the metal framework or a wooden subframe.

Roy.

 

[Timmo]

Well I did notice that for the ceiling panels (which were some sort of shiny white material) the screws holding them in place were not actually going through the panels but were in between the panel and the head of the screw seemed to be what was holding the panel in place if that makese sense...Again, it didn't seem like the way the job should be done to me...?

 

[Digit]

Sounds like self tappers into the metalwork with a Melamine type panel.
Has the owner sorted out the accommodation for the horse or has that to be done as well?

Roy.

 

[Timmo]

Hi Roy and thanks for your patience...The horsey bit is pretty much sorted with 3 partitions in the back which can be moved..it also has some rubber matting (about 1cm thick) on the walls for the horse to kick against without damaging the walls as much...Although again..finish isn't brilliant because there is no type of lipping or edging on top of the matting (which goes about half way up the walls) so straw and other horse type detritus has ended up getting down between the matting and the walls and the matting is starting to come away..so the limit of my work there will probably be to take off and restick the afore mentioned panels that are coming away and get some sort of lipping to prevent it happening again...I had thought that it could be easily achieved with a simple skirting type profile with a rebate in the bottom but it looks like there are a load of different profiles you can get from horsey bits and bobs suppliers for this kind of job...
I think my biggest concern is just around how to secure stuff to the walls (high cupboards, things to keep the saddles on) Because if there is no real battening to secure to then nothing that will take any weight will be able to be attached to the walls will it?
There is a little cupboard / compartment type effort that is full height and the wall of that appears to be made out of 12mm ply covered in this carpet stuff (or similar)...
Again - reading on that other forum about motor caravan conversions I understand that the insulation is very important to stop condensation and rust but I do not know what is behind the boards yet...Stripping it all out and starting again would certainly make this a lot bigger job..but at least I could do it properly (with help from here of course)...
Thanks again
Timmo

 

[Digit]

I think my biggest concern is just around how to secure stuff to the walls (high cupboards, things to keep the saddles on) Because if there is no real battening to secure to then nothing that will take any weight will be able to be attached to the walls will it?

If all else fails you build a framework that fastens to the floor, goes up the wall, across the roof then down to the floor on the other side with sufficient bracing to stop it from leaning to one side.
In other words you build inside, then attach panelling, cupboards, tack racks and saddle trees to that.
I assume there is a wall between Hoss and 'umans that should help brace everything if you can work with that.

Roy.

 

[Timmo]

Yes, there is a wall between 'orse and 'umans bit...I didn't take much notice of how sturdy that is but yes...as you suggest..the best way to make a really useable space would be to frame it all out inside and then re panel and use that frame for joining to...That will eat into the space a little but its probably the best way to be sure...What dimension timber would we be talking about for this frame do you think?
Thanks
Timmo

 

[Digit]

We used Ash framing. Anything a little thicker than the existing framing, once clad, should hold most stuff. But bonding ply to the frame will greatly increase strength and rigidity.

Roy.

 

[Timmo]

OK - Went to the horsebox today and took some pictures...You can see how tatty the inside is...
We have pretty much decided to strip out the walls and ceiling and start again doing it all properly and making sure there is sufficient strengthening where it is needed to secure cupboards etc...The plywood floor is pretty dirty and mucky and instead of trying to get anything flooring to try and stick to it I think I will just put down a clean think sheet of ply (there is enough lip on the door to cope with it) and then get some type of vinyl flooring (lino) down in there which should be very easy to clean...
Here are the pics anyway..

I have found a place where I can get the white faced ply for the ceiling and also some veneered plywood to have for the walls instead of the carpet so that will look a lot nicer...We are even wondering whether it is possible to move the divider between the horse and human sections to make a bigger living space...Any thoughts / suggestions / ideas are always very much appreciated..
Cheers
Timmo[/img]

 

[Digit]

Jesus wept! That's rough!
If you remove enough interior you should be able to re-build to any spec. What's the accommodation for the animal/s, one or two horse, mother and foal etc?

Roy.

 

[Timmo]

Glad its not just me that think ts rubbish..The horse accomodation is 3 stalls in the back although because of the weight limit for the vehicle the lady will only ever have 2 horses in there hence the discussion about whether we could move the bulk head between the 2 sections further back to increase the living space...I do think the best thing to do is to just rip it all out and start again...its not going to be a small job but it always better to do things right...I am glad you agree that the current finsih is rubbish..

 

[TheTiddles]

I'm presuming your work is paid for out of the refund?

Aidan