Georgian Bars

[Zeddedhed]

I have a set of French doors to make, along with non-opening side panels at each side.
The doors and side panels are divided up into 10 panes.

The client has asked for the new doors to be made with a single DG unit to each door and panel with planted on Georgian bars.

The only part of this project I'm a little unsure of is the making of the glazing bars. The external beading is a simple truncated triangle shape (putty bead?) and the internal is and Ovolo shaped bead.

Obviously the moulding of the rails and stiles presents no problem (router or spindle moulder). The actual glazing beads are what I'm unsure about.

I'm thinking that if I buy a scribe and mould cutter set then I could machine up the stock to size (22 x 13) then run through the router table or spindle moulder to get the first side of the bead. The second side concerns me as I've got very little support having already moulded the first side.

Is this where I need to machine up a 'scribe' shaped piece to use as a support, making a kind of tunnel to feed the stock through?

I know I can buy the beading from someone like WRP or Reddibead, but I doubt I'd be able to match the moulding for the scribe.

What do all you joiners out there do in this scenario?

 

[deema]

When I’ve done planted on mouldings or indeed any thin mouldings I make it out of much thicker stuff, mould both sides, cut off to required thickness, plane show face, mould etc. Until I have enough for the project. I cope them by hand.

 

[Zeddedhed]

Thanks for the reply Deema.

On a one sided moulding that would be fine. This is the moulding I'm going to be making -

Moulding the first side is no problem - it's when I have to turn it around and do the opposite side that I reckon it'll go a bit scary and wobbly. Coping by hand is not a problem either if needs be, although Wealden do sell a set to do both the profile and the scribe. I'll definitely need the scribe cutter for the ends of the door rails.

 

[LBCarpentry]

When running the mounds through set up 2 feather boards.

One on the top pressing the workpiece down to the table top and one on the side pushing it up against the fence and push through with push sticks. Between the two featherboards and the small flat at the top of the moulding there is enough support.

Prior to machining I use a piece of 18mm MDf as a false bed and push this into the cutter (then clamp it to the bed). This creates a zero-clearance table bed. It also means you can screw a 12mm featherboard directly to the bed.

Do your scribe cut before the mouldings. You will need to setup the saw, scribe & mould on different machines and literally just keep going round in circles.

Mark > Saw > scribe > mould > fit

 

[deema]

The stuff I would use is say 22mm wide by say 300 deep. That way there is no issue of keeping it flat to the bed. You could also make a quick jig that held the stuff so when turned over the jig ran against the fence.

The better method is to mould it in one. Whitehill have cutters to do it (haven’t checked if the profile is exactly what your after) or you can get some custom cutters made. Again using deep stuff and cutting off.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Yes, I'd cut them from a 22mm thick board.
You can take your two passes, then rip off to 13mm and repeat.

 

[LBCarpentry]

The issue with this though is that they need to be scribed first. How do you scribe them after they have already been moulded? They will simply break and spelch out.

Also the double sided Georgian bar tape needs to sit on a perfectly flat surface. Very difficult if it’s riddled with saw marks. IME they must be planed individually to achieve the exact same thickness/levels running through

 

[RogerS]

The issue with this though is that they need to be scribed first. How do you scribe them after they have already been moulded? They will simply break and spelch out.

Also the double sided Georgian bar tape needs to sit on a perfectly flat surface. Very difficult if it’s riddled with saw marks. IME they must be planed individually to achieve the exact same thickness/levels running through

Use a coping saw to cut the scribe.

I use a fine-toothed blade in the bandsaw so no saw marks to speak of.

 

[deema]

I use my table saw with a high tooth blade which gives an almost planed finish to separate the moulding. Quick light sand and they are good to go.
I use a mitre guilatine (chop saw as an alternative) and then Bandsaw / gouge and hand cope. It’s very very quick and easy.

 

[doctor Bob]

A lot of places now notch them leaving the 4mm flat and use a through dowel to joint the 2 bars into the notched bar. so no need to scribe, all 45 deg cuts and notches.

 

[Chip shop]

I might have got the wrong end of the stick here, but from what I read the OP is not asking how to scribe the joint, but how to build the moulding tunnel(and if the scribe is the question then Dr Bob is bang on...a Mason's mitre is the way to go. I do it with a small stub tennon, but a dowel solution works also)

If, however, the problem is what I think it might be then I think you're over thinking it. There's potentially 2 different problems. If you're making stick on glazing 'bead' then it's a piece of peas. You simply over-cut the bead on the spindle. That way the flat is always lying on the spindle bed and fence with ply springs. There's a bit of pissing about to make sure the power feed rollers are not gonna come into contact with the cutter head.

If there's a glazing rebate then you make sure your stock is planed and thicknessed in the square, then the cut the horizontal mortises for the vertical bars.

Rebate for glazing then over cut for moulding. This makes it it dead easy to build your tunnel as you only have to plane two bit of square section to support the stock.

 

[LBCarpentry]

I use my table saw with a high tooth blade which gives an almost planed finish to separate the moulding. Quick light sand and they are good to go.
I use a mitre guilatine (chop saw as an alternative) and then Bandsaw / gouge and hand cope. It’s very very quick and easy.

Morso guillotine and bandsaw are two essentials my shop doesn’t have.

I saw a setup for sale at w18 this year. It involved the guillotine for the mitred cuts and to achieve the gouge for the half lap joint they had a router on a laterally moving sliding arm. Bit like how a chop saw slides back and forth. Was pretty impressive. But at over 4K for both I walked away laughing. But when my next heavy Georgian bar job comes along I shall spend time using that method.

 

[deema]

A lot of places now notch them leaving the 4mm flat and use a through dowel to joint the 2 bars into the notched bar. so no need to scribe, all 45 deg cuts and notches.

Im probably just being slow today, but I can’t think how to do this quickly and easily (I can do it with hand tools, but that would be far slower than just a coping the pieces). I’m struggling to think how to notch and drill for the dowel accurately in all three pieces. How is it done?

I’ve fancied for a while the Morso notcher (I have their guilatine) for face frames, it’s the only thing I can think of that could potentially do it very quickly and accurately......but still can’t think how the dowel is done?

 

[Chip shop]

http://www.woodworkuk.co.uk/forum/viewt ... bar#p65807

Scribed version but dowelled...from a guy that knows a thing or two about woodworking.

 

[deema]

Thanks for the link, but I’m still at sea over how it’s done quickly and easily.
A masons mitre will leave a section 4mm x 4mm x 13mm at the ‘tip’ of the notched section. Pop a 6mm dowel through and you aren’t left with much wood which I would have thought was too little for any strength to remain.

The dowel holes need to be extremely accurate or the bars won’t align in both directions and look a mess / it won’t sit flush on the window.

I’m always keen to find better ways of doing things, just can’t see how it’s done. What’s the secret?

 

[Chip shop]

I think we're talking across purposes. There's what I consider a glazing bar as a lump of timber with a rebate on the back and mould on the front(for single glazed stuff) or stick on glazing bar for DG units.

I'd consider stick on window 'bead' as a jumped up face frame.

 

[deema]

Thanks Chip ship.
The original thread was for stick on beading. However I’m still really interested; although a diversion from the original post, on how you do your masons mitre for full glazing bars. I’m still doing them with a coped joint that has a stub tenon. I actually prefer to use the traditional method for double glazing as well as single glazing. I have found that planted on glazings bars are a pain. If you glue them to the glass you have issues when the glazing needs replacing, and if you don’t, they have a tendency to come away from the glass. If there is a solution to the issues I’d like to learn a new way of doing it.