Finger meets tablesaw. OUCH?
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Shane
Established Member
knappers":3s8aga4j said:
I think it was Ryobi, I remember a vid on youtube that mentioned it
Yep, that's right. I just found the original article in Fine Woodworking 213 (I hope it's okay to reporduce it here...) :
IN MARCH, A JURY AWARDED $1.5 million in a case against Ryobi for a benchtop tablesaw injury, claiming that the saw should have been equipped with flesh-sensing, blade-braking technology, such as the SawStop system. The verdict, which has major implications for the tool industry, set off a flurry of commentary on the Internet.
In a recent article that appeared in The Oregon/an, SawStop President Stephen Gass said he felt vindicated by the award. Other tablesaw manufacturers in the industry, including Ryobi and its parent company, One World Technologies, won't discuss the award, but court documents shed some light on the case.
In April 2004, Carlos Osorio took a job as a flooring installer for PT Hardwood Floor Service in Medford, Mass. According to the defendant's trial brief, Osorio had never used a tablesaw before, so his boss showed him how to use the tool and cautioned him about the dangers. A couple of weeks later while installing an oak floor, Osorio was ripping a 2%-in.-wide floorboard on a Ryobi BTS 15 benchtop tablesaw.
The blade guard and splitter were removed and he was making the cut without a rip fence. When he started cutting, he felt chattering and vibration, so he shut off the machine, removed the stock, and cleared away dust and other pieces of flooring from the saw table. Thinking he had solved the problem, he started cutting again, but his difficulties continued, so he pushed the board even harder. His left hand slipped into the spinning blade, nearly removing his pinky finger and severely cutting two other fingers and his thumb. Ultimately, Osorio would undergo five surgeries and 95 occupational therapy visits to treat his injured hand.
In April 2006, Osorio's lawyer, Richard Sullivan, who first saw the flesh-sensing technology in a CNN video, filed a civil complaint on be half of his client against One World Technologies, the parent company of Ryobi, Ridgid, and Milwaukee power tools. The complaint alleged that the saw's design was inherently flawed because it didn't have "fleshsensing technology," which would have stopped the blade when it detected Osorio's fingers.
Osorio's case went to trial in February of this year and was decided about four weeks later.
A jury concluded that Osorio was 35% responsible for his injuries and One World was 65% liable. They awarded Osorio $1.5 million in damages even though he was only seeking $250,000. The verdict form indicated that the jury felt the saw was "defectively designed" and the defects were a cause of Osorio's accident.
Both Ryobi and Gass agree that Gass demonstrated his tablesaw invention to One World Technologies in October 2000. Gass, a patent attorney with a Ph.D. in physics, would later launch his own tool company when he was unsuccessful in licensing the technology to existing power-tool manufacturers.
Late in 2009, when responding to a FWW reader's question about why tablesaw manufacturers hadn't adopted the SawStop technology, the major tool companies pointed to a number of reasons why they hadn't struck a deal with Gass when he first approached them. These ranged from doubts that the technology would work over decades of hard use, to the difficulty—even impossibility—of rolling out the technology through an entire line of tablesaws, especially the small, portable, job-site saws (such as the saw in the Osorio case) that must stand up to weather and other forms of abuse. Also, most were
concerned that if they rolled it out only on some of their saws, it might
amount to a tacit admission that their other saws were unsafe.
In any case, Gass went on to found SawStop, which manufactures three tablesaws, two
cabinet-style and one mid-sized contractor-type, each with the new technology. It is important to note that as a start-up company, Saw Stop was able to roll out one model at a time, giving them an opportunity to test their engineering and market viability with less risk.
Si.
IN MARCH, A JURY AWARDED $1.5 million in a case against Ryobi for a benchtop tablesaw injury, claiming that the saw should have been equipped with flesh-sensing, blade-braking technology, such as the SawStop system. The verdict, which has major implications for the tool industry, set off a flurry of commentary on the Internet.
In a recent article that appeared in The Oregon/an, SawStop President Stephen Gass said he felt vindicated by the award. Other tablesaw manufacturers in the industry, including Ryobi and its parent company, One World Technologies, won't discuss the award, but court documents shed some light on the case.
In April 2004, Carlos Osorio took a job as a flooring installer for PT Hardwood Floor Service in Medford, Mass. According to the defendant's trial brief, Osorio had never used a tablesaw before, so his boss showed him how to use the tool and cautioned him about the dangers. A couple of weeks later while installing an oak floor, Osorio was ripping a 2%-in.-wide floorboard on a Ryobi BTS 15 benchtop tablesaw.
The blade guard and splitter were removed and he was making the cut without a rip fence. When he started cutting, he felt chattering and vibration, so he shut off the machine, removed the stock, and cleared away dust and other pieces of flooring from the saw table. Thinking he had solved the problem, he started cutting again, but his difficulties continued, so he pushed the board even harder. His left hand slipped into the spinning blade, nearly removing his pinky finger and severely cutting two other fingers and his thumb. Ultimately, Osorio would undergo five surgeries and 95 occupational therapy visits to treat his injured hand.
In April 2006, Osorio's lawyer, Richard Sullivan, who first saw the flesh-sensing technology in a CNN video, filed a civil complaint on be half of his client against One World Technologies, the parent company of Ryobi, Ridgid, and Milwaukee power tools. The complaint alleged that the saw's design was inherently flawed because it didn't have "fleshsensing technology," which would have stopped the blade when it detected Osorio's fingers.
Osorio's case went to trial in February of this year and was decided about four weeks later.
A jury concluded that Osorio was 35% responsible for his injuries and One World was 65% liable. They awarded Osorio $1.5 million in damages even though he was only seeking $250,000. The verdict form indicated that the jury felt the saw was "defectively designed" and the defects were a cause of Osorio's accident.
Both Ryobi and Gass agree that Gass demonstrated his tablesaw invention to One World Technologies in October 2000. Gass, a patent attorney with a Ph.D. in physics, would later launch his own tool company when he was unsuccessful in licensing the technology to existing power-tool manufacturers.
Late in 2009, when responding to a FWW reader's question about why tablesaw manufacturers hadn't adopted the SawStop technology, the major tool companies pointed to a number of reasons why they hadn't struck a deal with Gass when he first approached them. These ranged from doubts that the technology would work over decades of hard use, to the difficulty—even impossibility—of rolling out the technology through an entire line of tablesaws, especially the small, portable, job-site saws (such as the saw in the Osorio case) that must stand up to weather and other forms of abuse. Also, most were
concerned that if they rolled it out only on some of their saws, it might
amount to a tacit admission that their other saws were unsafe.
In any case, Gass went on to found SawStop, which manufactures three tablesaws, two
cabinet-style and one mid-sized contractor-type, each with the new technology. It is important to note that as a start-up company, Saw Stop was able to roll out one model at a time, giving them an opportunity to test their engineering and market viability with less risk.
Si.
theartfulbodger
Established Member
his boss showed him how to use the tool and cautioned him about the dangers
The blade guard and splitter were removed and he was making the cut without a rip fence.
A jury concluded that Osorio was 35% responsible for his injuries
Only 35%? :roll:
yeeee har! and other American words #-o
The blade guard and splitter were removed and he was making the cut without a rip fence.
A jury concluded that Osorio was 35% responsible for his injuries
Only 35%? :roll:
yeeee har! and other American words #-o
Bluekingfisher
Established Member
There was a lawsuit in the states a year or so ago where a contractor lost his fingers while installing wood flooring with a Ryobi bench top saw. There was no guard fitted and the workman blamed Ryobi for not providing the appropriate safety devices. The guy who was an immigrant from Chile I believe was shown how to use the saw by the charge hand and had been working with it for several days before the incident happened.
Anyway the crux of the story is the guy was awarded $5 million for the loss of fingers. There was a complete transcript of the court case which I thought interesting reading.
The resulting furore centered around, "Is this the end of saws with no electronic stop devices" and will their Health & Safety Exec insist on sawstop devices on all saws from now on ?
As far as I am aware, once the stop is activated, the saw is wrecked at $4K a time this is a very expensive mistake although if it saves a finger then worth it i suppose. I can't help think of the stop being activated by something other than a finger though, how angry would I be if that happened.
The same article mentioned that there are 12 amputations from fingers meeting saw blades in the states EVERY day.
I think we in the UK take our saw safety a little more seriously however I always have to smile when I see some article where a table saw is being used without the guard. This is covered by the "for clarity purposes only" yeah right, then how come in every other shot the saw can be seen in the background with no guard??
Anyway the crux of the story is the guy was awarded $5 million for the loss of fingers. There was a complete transcript of the court case which I thought interesting reading.
The resulting furore centered around, "Is this the end of saws with no electronic stop devices" and will their Health & Safety Exec insist on sawstop devices on all saws from now on ?
As far as I am aware, once the stop is activated, the saw is wrecked at $4K a time this is a very expensive mistake although if it saves a finger then worth it i suppose. I can't help think of the stop being activated by something other than a finger though, how angry would I be if that happened.
The same article mentioned that there are 12 amputations from fingers meeting saw blades in the states EVERY day.
I think we in the UK take our saw safety a little more seriously however I always have to smile when I see some article where a table saw is being used without the guard. This is covered by the "for clarity purposes only" yeah right, then how come in every other shot the saw can be seen in the background with no guard??
Bluekingfisher
Established Member
Just noticed the same story identified in the article before mine #-o
Still a very interesting story though
Shane
Established Member
Bluekingfisher":16rutc07 said:
Agreed, how would the device respond when cutting wet timber, ie newly purchased tanelised?
BelgianPhil
Established Member
Eric The Viking":2z9hi3kr said:
I meant Stephen Gass, the inventor of the sawstop.
andhttp://failuremag.com/index.php/feature/article/give_this_saw_a_hand/":2z9hi3kr said:
No matter how many fingers they save or how many kittens they save from burning houses, there are things in life that aren't excusable, and being a patent lawyer is one of them.http://failuremag.com/index.php/feature/article/give_this_saw_a_hand/":2z9hi3kr said:
Eric The Viking
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Well the other guy (David Butler, 'Whirlwind' system) is a patent lawyer too.
I haven't looked at the SawStop patent(s) and don't want to hijack a thread, but what have patent lawyers ever done to you that they're so dreadful?
I haven't looked at the SawStop patent(s) and don't want to hijack a thread, but what have patent lawyers ever done to you that they're so dreadful?
Bluekingfisher
Established Member
Agreed, how would the device respond when cutting wet timber, ie newly purchased tanelised?[/quote]
Not 100% sure on this Shane although I think the device has something to do with electrical charges in the object coming into contact with the blade????
Having said this, I watched a vid clip where a guy stuck a hotdog sausage into the blade to have the effect. So on this basis, I have no idea what I am talking about :?
Not 100% sure on this Shane although I think the device has something to do with electrical charges in the object coming into contact with the blade????
Having said this, I watched a vid clip where a guy stuck a hotdog sausage into the blade to have the effect. So on this basis, I have no idea what I am talking about :?
Shane
Established Member
Bluekingfisher":2ghr3n1e said:
As a guess, if the electrical current passed through the hotdog in the vid no trouble, I'm pretty sure it'll do the same on wet timber
Bluekingfisher
Established Member
I wouldn't argue with you on that point.
For me personally I would not enjoy my woodworking nearly as much, the thought of triggering the device would certainly make me keep my hands away from the danger zone but I would dread turning on the saw. The only thing on my mind would be not activating the safety device and probably paying less attention to everything else going on.
I think the sawstop manufacturer has thought very long and hard about their system. The triggering of the device is sure to wreck the machine or at least an expensive part of it. Of course, they could quite easily justify the damage and expense by highlighting the fact you still have all your fingers. I wonder if the Americans, being big on statistics have figures for how many Sawstop activations there have been?? each of which I guess could be argued saved a digit. Just a thought
For me personally I would not enjoy my woodworking nearly as much, the thought of triggering the device would certainly make me keep my hands away from the danger zone but I would dread turning on the saw. The only thing on my mind would be not activating the safety device and probably paying less attention to everything else going on.
I think the sawstop manufacturer has thought very long and hard about their system. The triggering of the device is sure to wreck the machine or at least an expensive part of it. Of course, they could quite easily justify the damage and expense by highlighting the fact you still have all your fingers. I wonder if the Americans, being big on statistics have figures for how many Sawstop activations there have been?? each of which I guess could be argued saved a digit. Just a thought
Kalimna
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Just out of interest, has there been a video released of the SawStop in action under force? I mean that to prevent a hotdog-amputation when it is being fed gently towards the sawblade is one thing, and to do the same whilst forcing said meat-based-snack with a bit of pressure (as I imagine the case mentioned earlier with the $1.5mill) is perhaps a little different?
Adam
Adam
Shane
Established Member
Bluekingfisher":2uazvldw said:
No doubt they'll include false activations as finger savers in those statistics.
And any statements made about the sawstop taking all the force and not damaging the saw itself I suspect to be bs, that device absorbing 1000 G's?, I doubt it very much, I bet the arbor etc will be twisted
NetBlindPaul
Established Member
Actually during my "work" with them it appears that there is some clever energy transfers going on and the only wrecked thing is the saw blade.
Hudson Carpentry
Established Member
I did think the saw would stop if wet timber reached the blade. What if some sweat off your brow dripped onto the timber or by some random chance your sawing timber while eating a hot dog sandwich hehe.
False stops would scare me at a price of $60+shipping to the UK for a new stop. I hugely doubt at that force the arbor wouldn't sustain damage and result in an unbalanced and un true cut which both result is a higher risk while using the saw.
I also believe the more arrogant people would become laid back to where there fingers are thinking its ok as the saw will stop. This will lead to far more kick backs and injuries by kickbacks. Eventually with red tape, Table saws will become so "unsafe" to use there illegal.
Its out of order to fine Ryobi for making a saw without sawstop. Hello Mr judge so does every other manufacture other then well, sawstop. People have been using table saw for many years, them that know how to use them safely do not get hurt. The blame in that case should come down on the person that let a novice table saw operator, operate a saw with no guard, knife or fence without supervision and the proper safety training. If the operator knew not to push harder when the timber is resisting he would of not had the accident. If the guard was in place, his fingers may have not hit the blade. If the knife was on, the timber may have not resisted, also the case if a fence was guiding the timber straight.
If this was in the UK, I reckon it would go as far as every saw would be required to have a sawstop, including hand held power saws and not just circular saws. I bet it would be main mandatory that any powered saw on a work site would have to have a sawstop.
I don't agree with the technology at all. The statistics may show how many digits have been saved with the sawstop but, it don't show how many of them would have actually happened if the operator didn't know the saw was fitted with sawstop and got lazy with his safety. In my opinion the only machines that should be fitted with sawstop are machines thats used in schools and machines used for training/teaching.
False stops would scare me at a price of $60+shipping to the UK for a new stop. I hugely doubt at that force the arbor wouldn't sustain damage and result in an unbalanced and un true cut which both result is a higher risk while using the saw.
I also believe the more arrogant people would become laid back to where there fingers are thinking its ok as the saw will stop. This will lead to far more kick backs and injuries by kickbacks. Eventually with red tape, Table saws will become so "unsafe" to use there illegal.
Its out of order to fine Ryobi for making a saw without sawstop. Hello Mr judge so does every other manufacture other then well, sawstop. People have been using table saw for many years, them that know how to use them safely do not get hurt. The blame in that case should come down on the person that let a novice table saw operator, operate a saw with no guard, knife or fence without supervision and the proper safety training. If the operator knew not to push harder when the timber is resisting he would of not had the accident. If the guard was in place, his fingers may have not hit the blade. If the knife was on, the timber may have not resisted, also the case if a fence was guiding the timber straight.
If this was in the UK, I reckon it would go as far as every saw would be required to have a sawstop, including hand held power saws and not just circular saws. I bet it would be main mandatory that any powered saw on a work site would have to have a sawstop.
I don't agree with the technology at all. The statistics may show how many digits have been saved with the sawstop but, it don't show how many of them would have actually happened if the operator didn't know the saw was fitted with sawstop and got lazy with his safety. In my opinion the only machines that should be fitted with sawstop are machines thats used in schools and machines used for training/teaching.
NetBlindPaul
Established Member
There are issues with cutting moisture laden timber and other conductive materials, this can be deciphered from the information freely available on their web site, so I am giving nothing away.
Quick straw poll, who would buy one if they were brought to the UK and the price was comparable with any other good quality 10" table saw allowing that the quality of cut etc. was also comparable, I would really appreciate some feedback on this.
Thanks.
Quick straw poll, who would buy one if they were brought to the UK and the price was comparable with any other good quality 10" table saw allowing that the quality of cut etc. was also comparable, I would really appreciate some feedback on this.
Thanks.
Shane
Established Member
Nope, not for me
theartfulbodger
Established Member
I probably would. Having survived one near fatal accident that didn't involve woodwork, but left me a bit hamfisted.
It'd certainly be easier to get past the Mrs! Although I'm not in the market for a table saw with or without sausage proof safety mechanism.
I predict I'll be in the minority.
As an aside..a couple of thoughts to add to the mix:
When seatbelts were introduced how many wore them and how many said "I don't need that"
If sawstop is as brilliant as is looks why have I (and possibly many others?) never heard of it before? Is it a brand new bit of technology?
It'd certainly be easier to get past the Mrs! Although I'm not in the market for a table saw with or without sausage proof safety mechanism.
I predict I'll be in the minority.
As an aside..a couple of thoughts to add to the mix:
When seatbelts were introduced how many wore them and how many said "I don't need that"
If sawstop is as brilliant as is looks why have I (and possibly many others?) never heard of it before? Is it a brand new bit of technology?
NetBlindPaul
Established Member
StateSide mainly, also some Asia Pacific and one or 2 other markets, but not available in the EU see my other posts.
I just thought IF there was enough interest I'd ring them again and restart discussions or even pop over to see them and see what I could do?
They are working on CE at the moment, you could buy one yourself and import it into the UK, however, you would have to accept all legal responsibility for the unit as it would not be legal for sale or use in the UK/EU.
I just thought IF there was enough interest I'd ring them again and restart discussions or even pop over to see them and see what I could do?
They are working on CE at the moment, you could buy one yourself and import it into the UK, however, you would have to accept all legal responsibility for the unit as it would not be legal for sale or use in the UK/EU.
