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Rorschach

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Thats always a problem, the punishment is pointless without be implemented so not only don't the dirty people care for the enviroment and are also just very selfish, the law enforcers also do not see it as an offence worth pursuing. Lets have microchipping because then you would know who was in the park at the time of the littering and just send out the fines, no police needed.
Councils literally employ people whose sole job is to hand out fines for things like littering. And trust me, they don't let it go, they are right jumped up little fascists who will fine you if the wind blows something out the bin you just put it in.

The problem is no matter how many people you employ to enforce it and no matter how high the fines, there will always be litter.
 

Lons

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Also it would make sense to put some range extending batteries into future caravans. They potentially have the space, it maybe something that one could rent for the duration of a holiday.
One of the biggest considerations is weight, batteries are heavy and caravan manufacturers under pressure to keep the unladen weight as low as possible so that the available payload when deducted from MTPLM/MGW is realistic (it never is enough) and extra batteries would eat into that. ICE cars have been getting much lighter and caravans larger and heavier which is another issue as in general terms the van ideally shouldn't be more than 85% of the towcar KW unless you're very experienced and is limited anyway by the car manufacturer towing limit. Ironically EVs are heavier usually than equivalent ICEs but the manufacturer limits are likely to stay low and EVs will need to become lighter anyway as battery technology evolves.

As already said until the infrastructure is there for charging it's a complete no go, campervans and motorhomes will happen but it will again be restricted until sufficient charging points are installed for large vehicles and the wilds of Scotland and Wales aren.t going to be serviced any time soon.
Our motorhome is a couple of years old now with only 2400 miles and I tow a small car so I can state for certain that it won't be changed for an EV version as it was a rather large investment and will have to see out our needs until we give up that type of holiday.
 

Rorschach

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I think it will be EV campervans that will be the starting point as the type of holiday most people do in them is the most suited to the current (and near future) charging situation, then again, unless you travel exclusively in the summer months you will still need fossil fuels for your heating and cooking.

Motorhomes tend to be used in a way much more similar to caravans (hence why @Lons tows another car) and will suffer from the same kind of drawbacks.
 

TominDales

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I think it will be EV campervans that will be the starting point as the type of holiday most people do in them is the most suited to the current (and near future) charging situation, then again, unless you travel exclusively in the summer months you will still need fossil fuels for your heating and cooking.

Motorhomes tend to be used in a way much more similar to caravans (hence why @Lons tows another car) and will suffer from the same kind of drawbacks.
I think your predictions, and Lon's are pretty well spot on. Its unlikely the technology for this market niche will be ready for 10 years or so and as you say the capital cost is high and the mileage is low.
It maybe that biofuels or sustainable fuels will serve this market - they will command a price premium as they are 50% more costly to produce at the moment. The% bio/sustainable content is regular fuel is only 5% rising to 10% at the moment to count as sustainable -this was designed to encourages uptake while keep the price down. The % of bio/sustainable content will have to rise to 100% at some point and that will add to the cost.

From a save the planet perspective, getting passenger cars to EV quickly is the priority, as its addresses 50% of the problem and can be rolled out quickly. As EVs become universal then charging points will become universal. HGVs are next on the list. I suspect caravans will be further down the list. The Dutch do a lot of caravanning and don't have an indigenous car maker any more (DAF taken over), so they may well get something going in the is area as they have a lot of battery R&D in Eindhoven.
This is a very active development space. I've got clients making very low internal resistance batteries for server farm back-up supply and for fast charge points. The cells, trickle charge all day and night, but can be discharged very quickly when a vehicle plugs in. They are designed to even out the load at the substations.
National grid has a huge expansion programme unfolding to provide connectivity to distributed generation and supply, but this is a 20 year plan.
New technologies such as solid state batteries which offer lighter weight, higher power density, greater safety (ie no flammable solvents) are being developed - still some way off being commercialised. So at some point the caravans and motor homes challenge will get addressed, but it does feel like it will be further down the pipeline.
 

CornishWoodworker

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Could you put a couple of alternators/generators/dynamos on the caravan wheels?
First Law of Thermodynamics prevents this.
Just because you add a alternator or two does not mitigate the law.
Energy cannot be created or destroyed , it only transforms from one form into another.
You will use more energy in order to drive the alternators, just because the wheels are already turning does mean its free. There is drag , friction etc , which needs to fed by the driven source
Else, An electric car would have a generator on its motor, each of its wheels and the vehicle would always fully recharge itself.
No one has yet produced the Perpetual engine.
 

CornishWoodworker

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I think your predictions, and Lon's are pretty well spot on. Its unlikely the technology for this market niche will be ready for 10 years or so and as you say the capital cost is high and the mileage is low.
It maybe that biofuels or sustainable fuels will serve this market - they will command a price premium as they are 50% more costly to produce at the moment. The% bio/sustainable content is regular fuel is only 5% rising to 10% at the moment to count as sustainable -this was designed to encourages uptake while keep the price down. The % of bio/sustainable content will have to rise to 100% at some point and that will add to the cost.

From a save the planet perspective, getting passenger cars to EV quickly is the priority, as its addresses 50% of the problem and can be rolled out quickly. As EVs become universal then charging points will become universal. HGVs are next on the list. I suspect caravans will be further down the list. The Dutch do a lot of caravanning and don't have an indigenous car maker any more (DAF taken over), so they may well get something going in the is area as they have a lot of battery R&D in Eindhoven.
This is a very active development space. I've got clients making very low internal resistance batteries for server farm back-up supply and for fast charge points. The cells, trickle charge all day and night, but can be discharged very quickly when a vehicle plugs in. They are designed to even out the load at the substations.
National grid has a huge expansion programme unfolding to provide connectivity to distributed generation and supply, but this is a 20 year plan.
New technologies such as solid state batteries which offer lighter weight, higher power density, greater safety (ie no flammable solvents) are being developed - still some way off being commercialised. So at some point the caravans and motor homes challenge will get addressed, but it does feel like it will be further down the pipeline.
Please read any of the UK electricity network EV charging strategy papers.
Makes interesting reading.
I can't have anything higher than a granny charger (13A socket)at my property as the local infrastructure has maxed out its ability to sustain more than 4 , yes 4 higher rated chargers.
Timescale to upgrade , 7 months. plus the issue of who pays for it.
So as I need another car, its another diesel . Purchasing when showrooms open again.
Also EV
I can't tow
I can't fit a roofbox.
So EV is still a lifestyle choice
 

TominDales

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Please read any of the UK electricity network EV charging strategy papers.
Makes interesting reading.
So as I need another car, its another diesel . Purchasing when showrooms open again.
Also EV
I can't tow
I can't fit a roofbox.
So EV is still a lifestyle choice
For now, that seems the only option. A pitfall to watch out for as 2030 approaches, I suspect the government will up the anti on diesel vs EV by increasing fuel duty - probably to make it parity with sustainable fuel and another wack on road tax.
 

beech1948

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Thats always a problem, the punishment is pointless without be implemented so not only don't the dirty people care for the enviroment and are also just very selfish, the law enforcers also do not see it as an offence worth pursuing. Lets have microchipping because then you would know who was in the park at the time of the littering and just send out the fines, no police needed.
One solution would be to place UNTIDY tokens within the software of an EV. Authorised by the Police maybe. When the total number reaches say 3 times a demand for payment before being able to move the EV would almost ensure payment and thus punishment.
 

Lons

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For now, that seems the only option. A pitfall to watch out for as 2030 approaches, I suspect the government will up the anti on diesel vs EV by increasing fuel duty - probably to make it parity with sustainable fuel and another wack on road tax.
I guess it depends on what type of car you want.
I'm perfectly happy with my SUV which is very high spec. and would seriously consider replacing it with the same model, the difference in price at the minute however for the nearest EVQ equivalent, with lower spec. is around 50% more, that's an extra £25k which would pay for a hell of a lot of extra tax and fuel surcharge as I only do 6000 miles a year.

Will have to wait and see how much prices and incentives eventually alter the balance but aways to go yet methinks.
 

chrisdt

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Get a bike and fill the scrapyards up with these enormous over complicated pieces of rubbish. Come on lets help the scrappies make a good living. I was putting a set of points in a neighbours Morris Minor a few days ago. (For those under the age of 60 a set of points are contacts driven by a cam from the distributor to provide properly timed pulses of 12-volt electricity to the ignition coil. Might as well have written that in German) I digress. A guy walking by stopped and said my god I cant believe the amount of room you have to work each side of the engine. I replied Yes thats because everything today is so complex even the Main Agents are sometimes at a complete loss as to the problem. I know someone with an Audi which has been back to MA 5 times. He tells me he is getting used to driving in limp mode. Anyway the little Morris was back on the road in about15 minutes at a cost of £5. We need to think about K.I.S.S
 

TominDales

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Get a bike and fill the scrapyards up with these enormous over complicated pieces of rubbish. Come on lets help the scrappies make a good living. I was putting a set of points in a neighbours Morris Minor a few days ago. (For those under the age of 60 a set of points are contacts driven by a cam from the distributor to provide properly timed pulses of 12-volt electricity to the ignition coil. Might as well have written that in German) I digress. A guy walking by stopped and said my god I cant believe the amount of room you have to work each side of the engine. I replied Yes thats because everything today is so complex even the Main Agents are sometimes at a complete loss as to the problem. I know someone with an Audi which has been back to MA 5 times. He tells me he is getting used to driving in limp mode. Anyway the little Morris was back on the road in about15 minutes at a cost of £5. We need to think about K.I.S.S
I'm not sure its because the cars are that much more complicated - at least on a relative scale given what we know understand. But the MAs have deskilled their staff. They relyu on computer diagnostics and simple replacement solutions. When my automatic gearbox developed a fault I took it to a well know engineer in a shed in Stockton (on Tees) his shed was full of cars from the MA that he was having to fix. While in the guys shop, his phone went twice from the MA asking for help diagnosing a fault.
While I like to keep the old going - I had a Morris 40 years ago. The EUs new recycling directives will compel goods to be made to be mendable, companies like Miele the top end German white goods manufacture already has this strategy. Their goods cost way more to buy but last a long time and they keep parts for years to enable them to be fixed. our last washing machine lasted 20 years. Proctor and Gamble R&D in Newcastle use them as their test machines. So back to the EVs of the future. They will be force to be designed to be repaired. EVs are simpler than ICE and don't go wrong as often.
 

chrisdt

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Simple replacement solutions????? Come on....... Over £100 to replace an Audi A1 headlamp bulb. Have to take the front of the car apart to do it. If thats progress then my c.... a kipper !
 

TominDales

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Simple replacement solutions????? Come on....... Over £100 to replace an Audi A1 headlamp bulb. Have to take the front of the car apart to do it. If thats progress then my c.... a kipper !
You are right, all the main manufacturers seem to blunder on one point or another, my T5 is a doddle to change the bulb, but when changing the radio I found that it was simple to replace but rewiring the speaker would have meant taking the whole dash off. Our taxi firm told me the old Mercedes alternator had coolant running through it, which meant removing the engine to replace it. In my experience German cars are usually easier to get around than British designed ones. EVs are much simpler than ICE so there should be no excuse. This EU directive is specifically aimed as simplifying repairs, we will have to see if it pans out that way.
 

Trainee neophyte

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Energy density per litre and per kilo is the main problem. 900Wh/litre seems to be the current pinnacle of battery technology. Unfortunately they measure fossil fuel energy in different units, but it seems that batteries currently offer about 1% of the energy density of fossil fuels, and this may increase to 10%, when we reach the pinnacle of battery technology.

The good news is that electric motors are more efficient, so it's not quite as awful as the numbers suggest. It's still pretty dreadful though. A nice article on why jumbo jets can't ever be fueled by batteries: Flying Without Fossil Fuels: The Need For High Energy Density

About three years ago there were a few announcements about using atmospheric carbon dioxide to make liquid fuels - I haven't heard anything since, but that might be a better use of our time than chasing what seems to be a bit of a unicorn.

A quick search gave me a Forbes article, which says using the current technology the cost is about $4/gallon, which is not too far away from conventional fuel. Certainly not orders of magnitude higher. Carbon Engineering - Taking CO2 Right Out Of The Air To Make Gasoline
 

Ozi

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I think we need to get away from the one size fits all route we seen to be taking. Batteries have advanced amazingly but may not be the only answer. Fuel cells are coming along in many applications, mainly large CHP installations, there are over 500MW of electricity generation from fuel cells currently installed in the US. Running on gas they increase efficiency significantly compared to conventional combustion and hugely if the heat is also used. What we need now is cells running on hydrogen that's generated when wind energy is surplus to demand. Develop that technology till it's good to run first ships then trucks and cars. There is potential to develop micro cells that could run items like a phone
 

Jameshow

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Simple replacement solutions????? Come on....... Over £100 to replace an Audi A1 headlamp bulb. Have to take the front of the car apart to do it. If thats progress then my c.... a kipper !
Funny story about headlights.

I have had Volvo estates for many years and had an XC90 went to change the headlights bulb and it was a pain scratched hands everywhere Then later I noticed two metal tags wonder what these do! So I pulled the tent peg like levers up and out popped the headlight. Sometimes good design is there - we just dont see it!!! (Or read the instruction manual)

Cheers James
 
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Rorschach

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Funny story about headlights.

I have had Volvo estates for many years and had an XC90 went to change the headlights bulb and it was a pain scratched hands everyone... Then later I noticed two metal tags wonder what these do! So I pulled the tent peg like levers up and out popped the headlight. Sometimes good design is there - we just dont see it!!! (Or read the instruction manual)

Cheers James
That's a similar to my current car. My last car had tools free headlight changing, you popped off covers and could access the bulbs in just a few seconds, but you had to do it by feel, you couldn't actually see the tabs or clips etc.

My current car you have to remove the headlight to change the bulbs, this is done with 2 screws and 2 clips. At first I was rather irritated by this as I thought having to carry a tool to change the bulbs was a retrograde step. However what I realised is that while takes about a minute or so to get out the screwdriver and remove the headlight unit, once you do you can take the entire unit into the workshop where you can see exactly what you are doing. No fiddling with unseen clips, no scraped knuckles etc. I really rather prefer it now. And as to having to carry a tool to change them, well I just found an old screwdriver and put it in the small tool bag I keep in the boot along with the spare bulbs I carry, no big deal.
 

Lons

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I haven't needed to change a bulb on any of the vehicles in at least 25 years though I dread to think of the cost involved if my car headlights develop a fault. LED matrix intelligent light system, sounds like mega bucks. :unsure:
 

Rorschach

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I haven't needed to change a bulb on any of the vehicles in at least 25 years though I dread to think of the cost involved if my car headlights develop a fault. LED matrix intelligent light system, sounds like mega bucks. :unsure:
Yikes, yeah it would be mega bucks. I know you have not had to do anything but personally I think I prefer my "old fashioned" system which costs me £2 or £3 a year and 5 minutes of my time.
 

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