Electric vehicles - again

[Spectric]

A main dealer has to make regular income and cannot just rely on car sales to survive so they will still be making money somehow, maybe there will be a mandatory safety cert required every year for the life of the vehicle as well as the MOT !

Lets not forget the poor old chancellor, what about all the lossed revenue from fuel duty, will zero emision remain zero taxation because they will still need money to maintain the road networks and we could end up with a tax on the electricity used by the chargers.

 

[Jameshow]

Electrics and tech go wrong on a regular basis, sensor failure for example is an mot fail, diagnostics currently cost anything from £75 to £150 a pop on vehicles and I don't believe for one second that EVs will be immune to that. Dealers will find even more "clever" expensive ways of making you part with your cash, they do after all need to make profit and stay in business, remember those free coffees and biscuits at a main dealer aren't free at all.

Agreed I was only commenting on routine servicing.

Main stealers will make a killing esp as the indie sector will take time to build up an EV garage offer. Often they are ex main dealer mechanics who aren't going to be let go so easily.

 

[Stuart Moffat]

New batteries then, according to the "they sayers".

Likewise. My hybrid toyota auris is now 11 years old. I did 30,000 miles in its 1st year, and currently on 110,000 miles. The Toyota dealer says all cells test fine. No breakdowns or repairs.just annual servicing. Still no car tax to pay. why would I change it?

 

[Stevekane]

Re sensors, I wonder if many of the sensors that play up on IC engines are ones living in hot exhaust, or fuel system intakes whereas in an electric vehicle that perhaps wouldnt be the case. If you think about electrical and electronic items at home they are on the whole now extremely reliable.

 

[Just4Fun]

Tyres suspension and servicing will be the same like for like

Tyres are an oddity. I recently saw some figures that showed EVs are more likely to fail the MOT because of worn tyres, but I am not sure why. Possibilities include:
1. Many EVs have better acceleration than typical ICE vehicles, and that can wear tyres
2. Batteries are heavy and heavier vehicles wear tyres more quickly
3. EV Owners get used to low maintenance and don't inspect their tyres often

 

[clogs]

woz it on here that said a few breakdown service providers will not collect EV cars....?
if so those that do will screw u into the ground....
I'm sure the EV manufacturers will convince the know nothing morons in gov to include unimaginable sencers just to fleece u.....
What I believe should be manditory is that manufacturers should have to repair all electronic systems for 100,000miles FOC.....
this way they will build reliable vehicles that would be truely green'ish...
not fill the junk yards as now with uneconomical/unrepairable vehicles.....
I'm not against EV's but were just getting screwed over something newer .....

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Most EV manufacturers warrant a high level of battery capacity for 8-10 years, sometimes mileage limited.

A few car companies warrant ICE cars up to 7 years (eg: Kia) - no reason why it should be different for EVs. However, the first owner is typically concerned with only the first few years of ownership, it is the second and third owners who need a longer warranty.

The only major different in servicing costs will relate to the engine and gearbox - servicing is mainly related to checking and changing oil and filters - perhaps £50-100 of the total cost of the service + less frequent cambelt and spark plugs.

More major repairs are likely to be much less for an EV - simply because wear and failure will usually relate to the much higher number of moving parts in an ICE engine, clutch and gearbox.

Against that (for the moment) manufacturing and operating experience with ICE has ensured designs will have been refined over the years to minimise failure, whereas for EV I suspect we are still moving up the learning curve.

 

[Spectric]

it is the second and third owners who need a longer warranty

Our local garage will not entertain any EV's on the lot, he is looking to retire within the next ten years and so is also not investing in any training and won't be touching anything EV or hybrid because he knows there will be more than enough work to see him out.

 

[Jameshow]

Tyres are an oddity. I recently saw some figures that showed EVs are more likely to fail the MOT because of worn tyres, but I am not sure why. Possibilities include:
1. Many EVs have better acceleration than typical ICE vehicles, and that can wear tyres
2. Batteries are heavy and heavier vehicles wear tyres more quickly
3. EV Owners get used to low maintenance and don't inspect their tyres often

I don't think the are comparing like with like.

A 2t Tesla will eat tyres just like my 2.2t Volvo XC90 used to I'm sure it had secret shares in continental!!

A 1.5t mid size i3 might be compared to a golf ice at 1.2t but it's 30% heavier???

 

[astromax66]

I'm going to add my penny's worth about electric cars and believe me when I say, "I'm concerned about the rise in carbon emissions."
I've heard reports about fields in the USA loaded with ditched Tesla vehicles. The reason is this: (all figures are an example only)... People spend, let's say $46,000 on a Tesla. The batteries are modular and one or two modules require replacing. Tesla won't replace the bad modules, they will only replace the entire battery bank. OK... so how much? Well, anything from $18,000 to $26,000. The car is 6 years old and now worth only $12,000 to $16,000. Americans have started to realise that the battery market for car battery banks is an utter steal for the manufacturer. So the big question is this... Are electric/battery cars really practical or even worth it?
Remember, if you want to sell your car, you won't get a user-friendly price for it. If your car is only worth $16,000 and you replace the battery bank, no one is going to give you the price of a brand new car for a second hand even if you have replaced the battery bank with new because the second-hand car doesn't come with any of the manufacturer's warranties, guarantee's or limited warranties and a lot of the insurers will not touch that vehicle if you have replaced the batteries yourself.
SO... is the electric car really worth it? Go figure...

 

[Jones]

It took me less than 30 seconds to check the " fields of dumped Tesla's" story and if you can't be bothered to check yourself I can let you know it's boll**ks. Car batteries wether Lion or lead acid are valuable and recyclable and faulty ones can be replaced.
There are many valid reasons why an individual may or may not want an electric vehicle so there's really no need to make any up.

 

[Jacob]

It took me less than 30 seconds to check the " fields of dumped Tesla's" story and if you can't be bothered to check yourself I can let you know it's boll**ks. Car batteries wether Lion or lead acid are valuable and recyclable and faulty ones can be replaced.
There are many valid reasons why an individual may or may not want an electric vehicle so there's really no need to make any up.

Is it worth replacing the batteries?
I know nothing about them but it does seem to be the weakest link. I get the feeling that EVs are just a passing fad and won't be with us for long, except for local short distance work.

 

[AJB Temple]

If you know nothing about them Jacob, as you state, how can you know the batteries are the weakest link?

My experience is that is utter nonsense. We have had two fully electric Teslas (mine and my business partner's). Mine is 4 years old. Battery remains 98% efficient. Software and charging improvements mean range has gone up, not down. My wife's business is busy switching to all electric cars and service vans. Running costs are shooting down.

Typical range of EV's is increasing. Charger network is increasing rapidly. Charge time is coming down.

EV is here for the long term. HFC is always touted as a replacement, but has almost nil penetration so far.

 

[Spectric]

It might not only be the cost of the new batteries but also the work involved in changing them, it is not like changing your ICE battery as they are often distributed around the vehicle in various locations. I would also suspect you cannot just dump an EV because it contains hazardous materials. With the lead acid battery it is the plastic material that is of greater value than the lead according to my local salvage yard.

 

[Jacob]

If you know nothing about them Jacob, as you state, how can you know the batteries are the weakest link?

From what people say, where else?
Friends have a van - they complain about 100 mile range , scarcity of working charging points, and charging times.
And the net is full of chatter along the same lines.
You are unusual in being so positive. I guess you and your wife do a lot of short distance work?
I get the impression that small vehicles, down to scooters and pedal bikes, are more viable as the overall power to weight ratio must be higher and they only do short journeys.

 

[Just4Fun]

With the lead acid battery it is the plastic material that is of greater value than the lead according to my local salvage yard.

That is counter-intuitive. Certainly I would never have guessed that. Do you know why it is so? Has something happened to the lead that prevents (economic) recycling? Is there something special about the plastic?

 

[Spectric]

The plastic apparently is not just plastic, try putting most plastic's into Sulphuric acid and you can see why. Lead has a value but has got some bad press over the years, no longer used in paint and many other uses have diminished unklike when it was really valuable for pipes, cable sheaths and many everyday uses.

 

[sploo]

I get the impression that small vehicles, down to scooters and pedal bikes, are more viable as the overall power to weight ratio must be higher and they only do short journeys.

Sort of the opposite (at least, from what I understand of current battery tech). Think of a battery as being like a bucket with a tap; the bucket has a finite amount of capacity, plus there are limits to how quickly you can fill or empty the bucket (emptying via the tap). EV battery packs tend to have a large number of cells working in parallel - because you need them in order to be able to draw enough current.

Many years ago I suggested to (an electronics/electrical savvy) mate that I wanted to build a Lotus Seven type two seater with an electric drivetrain. My idea was to have only a few batteries, accept a tiny range (20-40 miles), but have plenty of "punch" - but that's just not feasible as a small number of cells couldn't deliver sufficient current for decent acceleration.

If you look at, for example, the Tesla Plaid; it's got over 1000hp, has a claimed range near 400 miles, but weighs well over 2000kg. I'd be happy with a 500hp EV that has a range of 200 miles, and weighs closer to 1200kg; but unfortunately that doesn't seem to be on the cards.

 

[Jacob]

Sort of the opposite (at least, from what I understand of current battery tech). Think of a battery as being like a bucket with a tap; the bucket has a finite amount of capacity, plus there are limits to how quickly you can fill or empty the bucket (emptying via the tap). EV battery packs tend to have a large number of cells working in parallel - because you need them in order to be able to draw enough current.

Many years ago I suggested to (an electronics/electrical savvy) mate that I wanted to build a Lotus Seven type two seater with an electric drivetrain. My idea was to have only a few batteries, accept a tiny range (20-40 miles), but have plenty of "punch" - but that's just not feasible as a small number of cells couldn't deliver sufficient current for decent acceleration.

If you look at, for example, the Tesla Plaid; it's got over 1000hp, has a claimed range near 400 miles, but weighs well over 2000kg. I'd be happy with a 500hp EV that has a range of 200 miles, and weighs closer to 1200kg; but unfortunately that doesn't seem to be on the cards.

Tesla Plaid. Price: From $135,990

 

[selectortone]

Why do people keep banging on about EV battery life when many reliable sources are forecasting life-spans well in excess of the life of the vehicle?

Here's just one:

What happens to old electric car batteries? | National Grid Group.