Electric vehicles - again

[selectortone]

My daughter is getting 280-300 miles per charge with her Kia e-Nero. It's the extended range version. It cost a LOT less than a Tesla Plaid.

Kia e-Niro (2017-2022) review | Auto Express

 

[sploo]

Tesla Plaid. Price: From $135,990

Absolutely, but then there's no such thing as a cheap EV (as far as I've seen). The Plaid is just an extreme example of a common theme for current EV cars: fairly expensive, impressive acceleration (compared to equivalent ICE cars), and lots of weight.

 

[selectortone]

What a bunch of luddites and curmudgeons we have here

 

[Jacob]

Absolutely, but then there's no such thing as a cheap EV (as far as I've seen). The Plaid is just an extreme example of a common theme for current EV cars: fairly expensive, impressive acceleration (compared to equivalent ICE cars), and lots of weight.

Exactly. In other words; toys for wealthy boys. Very little bearing on transport needs of the community as a whole.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Assuming a continuing demand for personal transport:

• fossil fuels are limited. Basic economics - if demand is greater than supply, prices increase to reduce demand. Precisely as happened to prices on Russian closure of the pipeline.
• the only real question is when will fossil fuel costs become unaffordable for most. ICE is ultimately a technological dead end.
• batteries can be recharged using fossil fuel, nuclear, wind or solar energy. There is a technological roadmap.
• that liquid and gas fuels can be synthesised is plausible - but all involve energy losses in production. Far better to use the energy to charge a battery where losses are minimal
• EVs have a significant development potential - cost of batteries, range, charging networks, etc. ICE is a very mature technology with almost nowhere to go.
• as with all advances, early adopters are those who can afford the high costs of emerging and developing technologies. Without their input progress would largely stall.
• we should not be ignorant of the challenges to be overcome with EVs - in particular the minerals needed for batteries and motors, recycling methods.
• individual needs vary but current EV range is entirely adequate for most folk most of the time.
• dismissing EVs as expensive toys for wealthy boys is (to put it courteously) is unjustified and superficial rhetoric of zero merit.

 

[Jacob]

.........

• dismissing EVs as expensive toys for wealthy boys is (to put it courteously) is unjustified and superficial rhetoric of zero merit.

We already have old, tried and tested, battery EV technology on devices such as milk floats, ideal for short local travel where long charging times are not inconvenient.
We already have old, tried and tested, electric pick-up EV technology for electric trains, trolley buses, for long-distance, high-speed travel with no new battery developments and zero charging time.
Trying cross the gap between them perhaps not worth the bother, though there's always scope for improvement - perhaps just joining them up makes more sense; electric rail followed by local electric taxi. Also means fewer vehicles on the roads.
Hope that isn't "unjustified and superficial rhetoric of zero merit" - it's got me worried!

 

[sploo]

Exactly. In other words; toys for wealthy boys. Very little bearing on transport needs of the community as a whole.

At the moment... mostly yes; though the costs have come down considerably, and the range of EV vehicles grown significantly. I'm a "petrol head" (old school motorsport fan) but I don't really see a better alternative to the steady adoption of EV cars. Or to put it another way; I largely agree with Terry's points in post #185.

 

[Jacob]

At the moment... mostly yes; though the costs have come down considerably, and the range of EV vehicles grown significantly. I'm a "petrol head" (old school motorsport fan) but I don't really see a better alternative to the steady adoption of EV cars. Or to put it another way; I largely agree with Terry's points in post #185.

My feeling is that yes ICE has no future but also we are at peak levels of personal transport anyway. Every city town and village is jam packed solid. Easy to forget that this has happened in a very short space of time, say about 60 years.
Public transport is the future and needs no technological advance.
The other issue is that Climate Change is altering the whole picture very quickly and most of what we should have done is already too late.

 

[selectortone]

My local DPD driver has an electric van. He absolutely LOVES it - quiet, smoother, less tiring to drive (no gears) and better performance. Plus it isn't belching out diesel particulates and CO2 like almost all the other delivery vans around here.

Probably not a viable alternative for a country round (yet), but for urban it's perfect. Sometimes EVs aren't just a viable alternative, they're a better alternative.

 

[AJB Temple]

Jacob's assertion that public transport is the future may be true in a handful of cities. Definitely not anywhere else. The bus service in rural areas is mostly a figment of people's imagination. Zero where we live - literally 3 miles walk to any bus stop and then the service is twice a day.

To answer your question Jacob - no I don't do mainly short journeys. No idea what my wife has to do with it. My general perception is that you don't know much about EVs and are just pebble chucking in ponds.

 

[Jacob]

Jacob's assertion that public transport is the future may be true in a handful of cities. Definitely not anywhere else. The bus service in rural areas is mostly a figment of people's imagination. Zero where we live - literally 3 miles walk to any bus stop and then the service is twice a day.

"reinstating" public transport then. Changes are on the way, probably bigger than anticipated

To answer your question Jacob - no I don't do mainly short journeys. No idea what my wife has to do with it.

You said "My wife's business is busy switching to all electric cars"

My general perception is that you don't know much about EVs and are just pebble chucking in ponds.

I don't know much about EVs but I am interested. Is that OK, hope you don't mind?
PS I'm interested in the whole climate change issue, as we all should be, but my general perception is that the EV interest is just fiddling about whilst Rome burns.

 

[Spectric]

Why put all your eggs in one basket, have a hybrid and you can always complete the journey. Hybrids are a good all round compromise because around towns and cities it can be electric but out on the open road it can be ICE so no pollution from the vehicle in traffic jams. One of the reasons why ICE's are not as clean as they could be is that they need a wide RPM range to operate, idle to max unless it is a hybrid, now you don't need the ICE for initial pull away or running at low speeds because this can all be electric. With the ICE it is all down to airflow and volumetric efficiency, this is a compromise because to get good airflow at high rpm means you get poor airflow with low velocity at low rpm. Some manufacturers have tried port deactivation systems in order to improve this and the variable vane turbochargers are also a means to improving their ability to deliver airflow over a wider range.

@Jacob is seeing the future in that personal transport will one day become history but for that to work will mean some very big changes in both attitude and society. Single occupancy vehicles are a problem, but having a public transport system that is unreliable and badly managed is not going to help because people cannot be expected to have long stressful commutes to work. We could well be revisting lessons from history, when transport was primative and long winded the people running industry like the mills actually built local housing for the workers, maybe we need people to work within a certain distance of employment and stop all these long commutes where one person in a car is passing another one person in a car going in opposite directions to work.

So rather than make the EV suit our current way of life lets change our way of life to suit the EV.

 

[Jacob]

@Jacob is seeing the future in that personal transport will one day become history but for that to work will mean some very big changes in both attitude and society.

The very big changes are coming along whether we like it of not. It's probably too late to do anything much anyway.

Why put all your eggs in one basket, have a hybrid and you can always complete the journey. ....

Worst of both worlds.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Just an opinion, but public transport as it currently exists is not the future. It is expensive, at best inconvenient, and for more rural dwellers economically non-existent. It is the default for those unable to drive, unable to afford a car, and for commuting into large urban centres.

Driverless will happen - the only question is when. Much of the tech is already embedded in newer cars and in delivery robots being trialled in many places. The future could be:

• driverless cars delivered to your door summoned by app. Payment card waved at a card reader. Tell it where to go. Arrive, get out, car goes to next assignment. Zero parking issues.
• for longer journeys, rail may be an option. App for car to station. At destination get into similar car for final journey leg
• some will still want own car rather than rented through app. May or may not be driverless. If used on longer journeys, recharging could be through induction loops (or similar) under road surface. Motorways to be upgraded first.
• road haulage could be radically changed through use of automated wagons
• with driverless, remote recharging sites could be established - cars would drive themselves there and plug in waiting the next assignment or full charge

There will be a lengthy transition to full transport automation, and much will depend on the performance of automated systems vs homo sapiens.

Automated systems in time may substantially out-perform flesh and blood and be the default or only transport choice. In 20 years, it is entirely plausible that to actually drive a car you will need to pass a very intensive test.

The benefits:

• old, disabled, children, etc will face none of the current personal transport barriers
• road safety may be improved
• costs of transport would be substantially reduced through vehicle sharing
• congestion reduced through automated routing
• limited need for parking spaces with reduced total vehicle population

 

[Ozi]

Exactly. In other words; toys for wealthy boys. Very little bearing on transport needs of the community as a whole.

Just as the first IC cars were.

In automotive as anything else there are economies of mass production. It matters not if people like the idea electric cars are going to dominate the market very soon and Petrol / diesel will rapidly disappear. This will happen, it's already under way. Petrol stations are getting less viable as businesses and closing in many areas. If you thought £2 a litre was expensive watch this space. As for fiddling while Rome burns that's up to us. Manufacturers will offer what sells. We need to buy smaller cars. We need to change the way we work - and are - more people work from home at least some of the time. Just as we need to stop heating our homes to tea shirt temperatures all year round

 

[rogxwhit]

public transport as it currently exists is not the future. It is expensive, at best inconvenient, and for more rural dwellers economically non-existent.

driverless cars delivered to your door summoned by app. Payment card waved at a card reader. Tell it where to go. Arrive, get out, car goes to next assignment.

And do you honestly suppose that such a scenario will be cheaper to use than the existing model of public transport?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Just as the first IC cars were.

It matters not if people like the idea electric cars are going to dominate the market very soon ...

I was speaking to an electrician who been on a course about installing charging points. He said the lecturer said at the beginning before we go much further what I'm going to tell you doesn't really apply - around here at least the infrastructure won't support anything like the loading.

 

[Spectric]

What is missing from public transport is efficiency, look how many millions of japanese pass through Tokyo's Shinjuku station every day, 3.5 million and thousands of trains yet here in the uk we struggle to even run a basic service which people can rely on. We run franchises for train operators and the actual tracks are operated as a public sector company run by our government, Japanese are completely in private hands.

 

[Jameshow]

I was speaking to an electrician who been on a course about installing charging points. He said the lecturer said at the beginning before we go much further what I'm going to tell you doesn't really apply - around here at least the infrastructure won't support anything like the loading.

Yeap I gave a national grid engineer freind and he says the same thing.

Not to mention ashp/ gshp....

 

[Spectric]

I was speaking to an electrician who been on a course about installing charging points. He said the lecturer said at the beginning before we go much further what I'm going to tell you doesn't really apply - around here at least the infrastructure won't support anything like the loading.

Domestic chargers are one problem, only really going to be an issue if a high percentage of homes in an area are all using them at the same time but commercial units which will be needed are another, you cannot just replace six petrol / diesel fuel pumps with six 60 Kw EV chargers each capable of pulling 80 plus amps because the supply won't be capable of delivering 500 amps. The whole infrastructure will need upgrading, from local 11Kv subs all the way back up to the 400Kv to 132Kv subs and then off course you need the power generation to supply it in the first place. So back to the hybrid, that is a more viable and cost effective solution in the near future until we can move onto full EV's.