electric fences

[SBJ]

I haven't lectured anyone on HOW they should do it, only that what they are doing is inhumane. Would you agree with that? That it's inhumane?

Perhaps lecturing was the wrong word... You keep preaching that it's "inhumane" and there are "alternatives" but don't actually come up with anything that's a workable alternative!

I'd personally rather have my neck broken without knowing it was going to happen rather than die choking in the equivalent of a gas chamber or being spiked and dragged along the dirt by a plough for arable crops if I had the choice.

I haven't preached about any alternative. I did link to a Google search.

The viable alternative is to not kill the moles then look at your circumstances and see whether you have the right conditions to keep other livestock. If it's unsafe for you to do so, don't risk the well being of another animal. It's a bizarre scenario where you kill one animal so that you can keep another. It's certainly not the actions of one who has respect for animals.

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[Trainee neophyte]

This is slightly embarrassing - I've been busy the last couple of days butchering two sheep (we killed them last Friday, hung them until Monday, and then made lots of chops etc),and then made extra sausages, burgers etc from some pork from last year's pigs, because we have run out. Not very vegan.

Vegans are, in my opinion, utterly detached from reality: anyone who actually is involved with food production, especially organic food production, understands the vital role animals have in the cycle. You can't make more plants without either animal manure, or carbon produced fertilizer. Luckily more CO2 in the atmosphere means plants grow faster, and produce more oxygen. Did you know that the CO2 levels in a mid-level management meeting can exceed 2,000 ppm? And that is before Human Resources have any input. Puts 400ppm to shame.

To put it another way: I'm quite fond of vegans, but I couldn't eat a whole one.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Thats the good thing about pigs - the only part of a pig you can't eat is the squeal.

 

[SBJ]

This is slightly embarrassing - I've been busy the last couple of days butchering two sheep (we killed them last Friday, hung them until Monday, and then made lots of chops etc),and then made extra sausages, burgers etc from some pork from last year's pigs, because we have run out. Not very vegan.

Vegans are, in my opinion, utterly detached from reality: anyone who actually is involved with food production, especially organic food production, understands the vital role animals have in the cycle. You can't make more plants without either animal manure, or carbon produced fertilizer. Luckily more CO2 in the atmosphere means plants grow faster, and produce more oxygen. Did you know that the CO2 levels in a mid-level management meeting can exceed 2,000 ppm? And that is before Human Resources have any input. Puts 400ppm to shame.

To put it another way: I'm quite fond of vegans, but I couldn't eat a whole one.

It's funny, when you mention that you're a vegan, almost without exception,someone will do what you did and list as many meat products as they can. Today, that's your crown to wear!!

That's the first time I've heard that it's not possible to grow vegetables/crops without animal manure or increasing cow output!

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[SBJ]

Thats the good thing about pigs - the only part of a pig you can't eat is the squeal.

The good thing about pigs is that they are intelligent, loving animals surely? Unless you're talking about those factory farmed ones which don't really get to show their good side?

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[Trevanion]

The good thing about pigs is that they are intelligent, loving animals surely?

Oh, my dear boy... You really don't know a thing do you.

 

[Nigel Burden]

I think you'll find that if you trap vermin alive it's illegal to let it go again.

It is.

My daughter is a veterinary nurse. Any vermin brought in by the public is euthanized, as it is illegal to release it back into the wild.

Nigel.

 

[Nigel Burden]

Don't knock crows.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt-pB1R64mI

Nigel.

 

[RogerS]

Now I'm curious !

I wouldn't advocate the use of anything that wasn't humane - even if it did show up in the google search for humane ways to deal with moles!

Other circumstances would be where information is scarce (remote tribes in Africa, South America, Asia), where crops aren't available (extreme temperatures deserts, ice). Certainly in the western world I see no reason why we can't move to a majority plant based diet and in time wholly plant based. Nobody wears fur these days, I guess there was a time when that might have seemed like a ridiculous concept?

To be honest that smacks to me as a bit of a cop-out. If we take veganism to its extreme then I can't square that hypocrisy because if it happened overnight then all the sheep, cattle, horses, goats, oxen, camels, even pets...cats and dogs etc would need to be killed because no-one is going to feed them or pay for their welfare. I can understand vegetarianism but to my mind veganism is bordering on a cult. For example, that nutter...and yes, he is a nutter taking his employer to court over something inconsequential ...but this nutter won't go on a bus in case the wheels run over an insect.

Fair play to you if that's how you wish to live your life. And I appreciate you taking part in this discussion.

 

[SBJ]

The good thing about pigs is that they are intelligent, loving animals surely?

Oh, my dear boy... You really don't know a thing do you.

Hmm. Since you found out I'm a vegan you seem to have an issue. You've called me odd and unreasonable. You never bothered to respond to my question regarding whether you thought it could be possible to humanely kill any animal.

As a vegan, I eat mostly the same foods as you except I leave out the meat. As an ex meat lover, I felt it was, given the information at hand, the right thing for me to do. I believe it's the right thing for everyone to do, and things are changing at a much faster rate than i thought possible even a couple of years ago. From our brief interaction, I don't suspect that you will ever understand or want to be a vegan. However, I bet your kids, or your grandkids will be, or atleast be much more open to the idea. Its currently the fastest growing food sector in the UK.

If you are as reasonable as you claim that I'm not, watch a couple of documentaries on the subject. Try Gamechangers, about the affect of meat on athletic performance, or conspiracy on the real cost of meat production.

You keep telling me I don't know anything, but I bet you I'm much more likely to have a grasp of both sides of the argument having been in both camps.

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[SBJ]

Now I'm curious !

I wouldn't advocate the use of anything that wasn't humane - even if it did show up in the google search for humane ways to deal with moles!

Other circumstances would be where information is scarce (remote tribes in Africa, South America, Asia), where crops aren't available (extreme temperatures deserts, ice). Certainly in the western world I see no reason why we can't move to a majority plant based diet and in time wholly plant based. Nobody wears fur these days, I guess there was a time when that might have seemed like a ridiculous concept?

To be honest that smacks to me as a bit of a cop-out. If we take veganism to its extreme then I can't square that hypocrisy because if it happened overnight then all the sheep, cattle, horses, goats, oxen, camels, even pets...cats and dogs etc would need to be killed because no-one is going to feed them or pay for their welfare. I can understand vegetarianism but to my mind veganism is bordering on a cult. For example, that nutter...and yes, he is a nutter taking his employer to court over something inconsequential ...but this nutter won't go on a bus in case the wheels run over an insect.

Fair play to you if that's how you wish to live your life. And I appreciate you taking part in this discussion.

To be honest, I don't think you'll find one sane vegan that thinks the whole world will turn vegan overnight. There would never be a cull, that wouldn't make any sense to anyone on either side of the argument. I think that most of us would like to see the current trend of growing awareness and gradual conversion.

What's really interesting is that in the last year we have reached a tipping point which makes me believe that plant based will become much more prevalent. Business has realised that there's money to be made. It's cheaper to produce vegan food, but retails at the same or higher prices. As demand/scale grows, prices will fall and more investment will come. On the flip side, demand is falling for meat and dairy, scale drops, prices rise demand drops further - meat will become a speciality product. We'll see I guess.

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[Trevanion]

Hmm. Since you found out I'm a vegan you seem to have an issue

I've had an issue since before you mentioned you were vegan, but that didn't help in all honesty along with unknowledgeable statements. Pigs aren't "Intelligent, Loving Animals", You fall down near them, they will eat you, that's as simple as it gets.

To answer your question, in my mind, Humane means to cause the least amount of suffering possible. Of course, as you said the most humane thing to do is nothing at all, but, I cannot do nothing at all, if I did nothing at all the ground would be useless, larger animals would break their legs and would have to be euthanised. Now, I see your argument that you should not take one life to necessitate another but it simply just does not and cannot work that way at this time. I do not see what is wrong with an unknowing, instant and painless death where only absolutely necessary. I don't go around killing things for the hell of it, I'm vehemently against genuine fox hunting with hounds and snaring animals, it's cruel and unnecessary.

 

[Inspector]

Nobody has the right or understanding to discus what is humane as long as humanity is busy killing each other in the most brutal ways imaginable, just for some form of wealth, territory or power.

Pass that rack of lamb and bowl of carrots my way. =P~

Pete

 

[SBJ]

Hmm. Since you found out I'm a vegan you seem to have an issue

I've had an issue since before you mentioned you were vegan, but that didn't help in all honesty along with unknowledgeable statements. Pigs aren't "Intelligent, Loving Animals", You fall down near them, they will eat you, that's as simple as it gets.

To answer your question, in my mind, Humane means to cause the least amount of suffering possible. Of course, as you said the most humane thing to do is nothing at all, but, I cannot do nothing at all, if I did nothing at all the ground would be useless, larger animals would break their legs and would have to be euthanised. Now, I see your argument that you should not take one life to necessitate another but it simply just does not and cannot work that way at this time. I do not see what is wrong with an unknowing, instant and painless death where only absolutely necessary. I don't go around killing things for the hell of it, I'm vehemently against genuine fox hunting with hounds and snaring animals, it's cruel and unnecessary.

It's nice that you can admit your bigotry towards my veganism.

You can not kill something humanely. To act humanely is to act with compassion. To kill something because it interferes with your lifestyle doesn't display any compassion, none at all. I know that saying 'humanely killed' makes you feel better, but just call it what it is, you're just killing moles because they get in your way.

Right, are you sure you meant the fall down near the pig and it will eat you thing. Done a bit of digging and cant really find that anywhere.

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[SBJ]

Nobody has the right or understanding to discus what is humane as long as humanity is busy killing each other in the most brutal ways imaginable, just for some form of wealth, territory or power.

Pass that rack of lamb and bowl of carrots my way. =P~

Pete

What are you talking about? We are discussing the use of 'humane' in its common every day understanding! To act with compassion.

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[Trevanion]

Right, are you sure you meant the fall down near the pig and it will eat you thing. Done a bit of digging and cant really find that anywhere.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19796224
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47161035
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/10480945/Mafia-fed-rival-to-pigs-while-he-was-still-alive.html
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/farmer-eaten-alive-pigs-shocking-17353911
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7751365/Expert-warns-pig-bomb-woman-mauled-death-hogs-lethal-sharks.html

"Although not true carnivores, pigs are competent predators and can kill and eat helpless humans unable to escape them."

 

[Lons]

Clearly on your hobby horse Stuart but all you'll do is turn this into another angry thread, you're not going to change my view or that of many of the others I guess.
I have absolutely no issue with you being a vegan but I do object to attempts to indoctrinate the rest of us.
Enjoy your plant food, I'll stick to my choice of a normal healthy diet which of course includes my 7 veggie / fruit a day as well.

cheers
Bob

 

[SBJ]

Right, are you sure you meant the fall down near the pig and it will eat you thing. Done a bit of digging and cant really find that anywhere.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19796224
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47161035
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/10480945/Mafia-fed-rival-to-pigs-while-he-was-still-alive.html
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/farmer-eaten-alive-pigs-shocking-17353911
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7751365/Expert-warns-pig-bomb-woman-mauled-death-hogs-lethal-sharks.html

"Although not true carnivores, pigs are competent predators and can kill and eat helpless humans unable to escape them."

That's not really fall down near them, they will eat you! Do you want me to share with you links to pigs being sentient intelligent animals?

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[SBJ]

Clearly on your hobby horse Stuart but all you'll do is turn this into another angry thread, you're not going to change my view or that of many of the others I guess.
I have absolutely no issue with you being a vegan but I do object to attempts to indoctrinate the rest of us.
Enjoy your plant food, I'll stick to my choice of a normal healthy diet which of course includes my 7 veggie / fruit a day as well.

cheers
Bob

I'm not trying to indoctrinate you! Out of interest, why don't you want someone (not me necessarily)to change your view? Why don't you want to learn, to be a better informed person?

Just out of interest is my diet not 'normal'

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[John Brown]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aPQPwFF4DI