December Challenge / What happened - 2012 ??????????????????

[Blister]

WARNING this is long winded


So the 2011 challenge has made it to the end ( Just #-o )

So what went wrong with the December Challenge :?:

The rules and requirements were there for all to see :-

December Rules and requirements

To create a Christmas related item

This can be a Snowman ( Snowperson :lol: ) a Christmas tree or group of items making a scene
Must be as festive as possible

Max diameter of 12”
Max height 12”
Any wood type
Must be lathe turned
Also allowed are , cotton wool, tinsel and glitter to enhance your entry ( But you must still be able to see that its made from wood :wink:

And how many entry's conformed to the R&R's :? I will leave you to look at the entry's and make your own minds up

For those that did keep to the R&R's ( Not many ) these entrants are at a disadvantage

So far in the Challenge I have not had to disqualify anyone's entry's, but this month if I had we would be down to about 4 entry's

Its to late do anything about it now as everyone who could judge has judged and seem happy with everything , However I have had PM.s from people asking questions . I wont go into names for obvious reasons

Recapping on my original reason for starting the 2011 Challenge was to

Encourage more turning in the Woodturning section of the forum
Make it a bit more fun for everyone
Challenge people to do things they would not normally produce
Fund this Challenge as it was my idea and give an award monthly to the winners

During the year we have had some controversy , I think we all know about this so no point going over it again

We started out with 53 entrants , this then dwindled down to about 15 regular entrants , offers of help to keep scores by forum members also fell away ( I understand its not compulsory its voluntary ) Thanks for the time you did invest

We then move on to the people who have stayed the coarse
CHJ , The amount of work Chas had done is outstanding . I don't even have to ask the man , its done ! =D> =D> =D> Thanks Chas

Hudson Carpentry , Amazing =D> =D> =D> , even wrote a software program for the annual scores , kept the scores updated each month again all for free and without asking , Alan has also offered to improve this for us if the challenge continues , Many thanks for you help and support

Now what happens for the future :?: :?: :?:

So far we have 27 names down for this challenge , if we suffer losses like last year we could end up with 15 again :?

Costings , To run this challenge for 2012 will work out as follows

Awards x 13 £45
Jiffy bags x 13 £4
Postage x 13 at £1.70 each £22.10

Total £71.10 ( I will fund this again for 2012 )

Some member have offered to pay towards this but I cant see how it will work as other members will then feel obliged to do so , also if we get others joining in later in the year and they are asked to pay this may put them off , also if they are in for 7 months should they pay for 12 ? it will get very complicated and lead to problems ( That I don't want ) as its supposed to be fun for me as well :mrgreen:

Maybe its time for someone else to run the challenge ? they do say change is good ( Whoever they :? are )

I have tried over the last 12 months to keep it simple / easy / relaxed but its not worked out 100% we have had hiccups along the way with Judging / rules / requirements I have tried to address these issues with tightened up rules and regs , but this has not worked 100%

So time for a poll to decide the Future of the UKW 2012 Challenge

Hope you don't think I an being over dramatic by doing this but my aim is to get back on track , make it easy , fun etc

Allen

 

[gus3049]

Hi Allen,

I've just got out of hospital for the weekend and first thing to look at was the forum of course.

Seems a shame that the end of the year should include another controversy but then, there are people involved.

I can't see that ANY of the entries broke the rules. You said that 'it CAN be' a snowman etc. There is a distinct difference between that and 'MUST be". I would have entered something that wouldn't have been accepted if I had been able to. I just assumed it had to be Christmas themed and indeed, would have tried to find something 'different' to do.

The only way to avoid controversy is to be absolutely specific with the rules although you might then miss out on some inventiveness with the entries.

I say lets carry on much as we are but try and tighten it up a bit.


We are all, I'm quite sure, grateful to you and the others who have put in time and effort and I for one would hate to see it fold now.

Happy New Year.

 

[Wood spoiler]

I think that I as most did read it as a turning challenge which could be augmented with decoration to make it festive. Hudson Carpentry made the valid point that it did not say colours, pyro, etc could not be used. In earlier months you categorically stated when certain techniques etc could not be used.

Moving on to the year, overall it has been a huge success. The number of entries submitted that started with the words, " this is my first...." prove it.

Speaking personally, I have done loads of new things and discovered pyro and carving which has taken me in whole new directions.

The only thing I disliked was a certain month when someone entered just to compete in their "pet" month, win and not submit anything else

I was disappointed by the rate of drop off, but we do know from previous discussions that many have enjoyed following the challenge even though they have not themselves entered.

It has also provided a great resource in the manner in which Chas (CHJ) has presented each months entries

All round (and as amended mid way) the Challenge has been a great tool in my own development and would expect others to benefit in future.

I for one say keep it going and just tweak it as required.

 

[Daven]

I think end it - I lost interest after the first bout of bickering. I did enter a couple of bits but only as I had the time and was bored so rather than encouraging me, it did the opposite. I'm not over competitive so don't understand why it became such a problem.

If those who run or help run a competition end up being stressed out over it, then it's just not worth it (well maybe if there was BIG prize money which may justify prima donna attitudes :wink: ).

Dave

 

[nev]

also long winded..

to quote blister...
Recapping on my original reason for starting the 2011 Challenge was to

Encourage more turning in the Woodturning section of the forum
Make it a bit more fun for everyone
Challenge people to do things they would not normally produce
Fund this Challenge as it was my idea and give an award monthly to the winners

i think it has done this and more. i only discovered turning and this forum in early 2010, so i dont know what the forum was like previous to that, but i have learned a helluva lot by taking part in both the forum and the challenge.

I think that Blisters points 1,2 and 3 have been more than achieved and i applaud you for all your efforts (everyone).

i am happy to continue as is, as we must remember it supposed to be a FUN challenge. Yes its a p***er when you put in a lot of effort and you fall foul of the rules due to misunderstanding at one end or another, but remember, fun fun fun! there are other comps around where one can pay an fee to enter and compete, and in that case one may have cause to challenge the rules and results if not happy.
there is a clue in the title - 'challenge', not 'competition'.

As much as i would love to win a plaque, (and hopefully will get the chance in 2012) id be just as happy with a virtual prize, or a certificate i could print off myself and place on the workshop wall.

so in short, leave it as is, enter the challenge for what it is, a fun challenge, accept the judges decisions and take the practice, experience and cameradery of the forum as the only reward required.

(steps down from soap box and heads to shed)

happy new year

 

[monkeybiter]

accept the judges decisions and take the practice, experience and cameradery of the forum as the only reward required.

+1

It's been brilliant. You should do what is best for you, but if you do decide to continue in 2012 I for one will be very happy.

I've voted to tighten the rules to allow it to be easier to run, but of course that will only work if judges are prepared to apply those rules as strictly as they are stated. If not I shall demand the return of my entrance fee.

 

[CHJ]

My personal view is no matter how tight you try to make the rules there will always be a selection of individuals who choose to place their own skewed/preferred vision of what they mean, and on a regular basis challenge them and try and influence the general consensus round to their view.

I say apply the K.I.S.S rule and keep the rules/guide down to a basic statement and allow the judge to determine if the challenge has been met. **
This allows for maximum creativity and as long as the submitter has learned something new and enjoyed producing the finished item; then the fact that they strayed too far from the intention of the rules/guide as envisioned by the setter or in the judges opinion, is of little matter.
If you go down the 'tightening the rules' route I envision that eventually there will be no alternate but to provide a technical drawing and specify wood, tools to use, method of holding etc.

In the past 2011 challenge I have seen only a few opening gambit mistakes warranting a challenge/clarification or pointing out of a typo. error. It may be I'm mistaken but my memory of most rule challenges have been about semantics and not a problem relating to interpretation by the majority.

Personally I don't think the entrants voting has much merit, no disrespect to the entrants but by its very nature the challenge hopefully brings together folks of all abilities including a fair number looking for guidance and inspiration and not necessarily with a wealth of experience to judge the turning skills needed.

** And no Public comments about his/her decisions please. Should there be any worries about objectivity or bias keep them within the confines of PM traffic with the organiser/s and let them sort it.
Anybody who has entered club or village/local community competitions will probably know what judging bias can be like, I have not seen any evidence of the like in 2011.

 

[Haldane]

I think Nev has summed up my opinion perfectly, I hope the challenge continues next year without to many changes and would like to thank all involved in organising and running the challenge throughout the year.

Cheers and Happy New Year to all
Dave

 

[jumps]

I agree with the majority of the observations above.

The only clarity I struggled with was the implied elements ie use of 'can be' when it subsequently became apparent that this was 'should be' or 'is epected to be' - that all seemed to be fully resolved in both the rules, and my my understanding.

I can only answer Dec for myself and I didn't enter because I simply ran out of time - it's the busy period for grandparents! I have to say that I was also glad I wasn't required to vote; especially because it looked like it would decide the years outcome.

None of the above constitutes real change from this years underlying format - hence my vote.

As said before, thank you to all those involved in organising, judging, scorecards, etc - amazing.

 

[cookie777]

Hi All,
As one of the judges for 2011 I have voted to see the comp. run next year, I will not be a judge for 2012 but the judges that Allan have lined up for 2012 will be great for the job, it's a shame that one or two felt the need to throw their toys out the pram this year but thats life, congrats to all of you that stuck in there & if the comp continue I wish all of you the best with your entries, the standard from the jan. comp to dec. must encourage you all
Regards Barry

 

[Silverbirch]

I agree with most of what has already been said. I`ve enjoyed taking part very much and my turning has improved by doing so. As Chas says, KISS is the best approach to devising rules for entry. As one of the entrants who is perhaps seen by some as not having stuck to the rules, I can only say that it never occured to me that I was bending/breaking them, nor does it seem so with hindsight. I took the same view as Woodspoiler:

I think that I as most did read it as a turning challenge which could be augmented with decoration to make it festive.

Ian

 

[gerrybhoy70]

I'd like to see the challenge continued into 2012.
Due to my own stupidity (the wrist!!! lol) I never got the chance to take part in the 2011 challenges after becoming involved in the forum, but did follow the entries & outcomes with interest.
My vote was to continue, but tighten the rules.
Nothing condescending meant to anyone by this, however, if there's a list of musts then I'd like to see a list of must nots too - with anything not mentioned being optional at the turners discretion.
If there are no optionals, then this should also be stated.
I don't want to see it becoming overcomplicated, but personally I like to know exactly what can/cannot be used/integrated when a challenge/task is set as I'm still in the early stages of developing my skill.
The more guidance for people in my position, the better.

This said, I'd just like to congratulate everyone who entered at any point for the high standard on show regardless of any bickering or confusion that may have occured. It's in the past and can't be changed, so why dwell on it?
Very few projects are begun wthout teething problems, and the 2011 challenge was no exception.
If mistakes were made, they can be learned from. If things worked, keep doing them.

To say it all in short:-
I say keep the challenge going, albeit with a little bit tighter or more specific rules.

Blister - you brought a great idea into the forum, and for the most piece it's worked really well.
So what if some people drop out of entering? As long as there's a decent number of people entering, them it still keeps its competitive edge.

And finally - may you all have a very happy & prosperous new year.
Wishing you all the very best for 2012.
Cheers

 

[Melinda_dd]

Ok I'm going to be bold here... probably the wrong move but we'll see!!! :?

My main issue this month was with Mr silverbirch's entry.
Firstly before there's a huge fight because i've pointed my stubby finger, may I say that each month this person's entry is the one I look forward to seeing the most.Technically brilliant, inspiring and a joy to see.
If I can become half as good as silverbirch I will be happy (though the way I turn I doubt it)

This month was no exception. I loved his entry and would happily give it unit space at christmas. it was my favorite, however...
My nark was that the rules clearly stated "but must still be able to see it's made of wood" and the entry was completely painted and textured and the wood couldn't be seen.... as I say it was brilliant, but just didn't fit with one of the clearly stated rules.

I am not bashing Mr silverbirch's turning entry at all. He is brilliant, and has been consistently, has many years of experience on me Ii don't doubt, but it did bake my noodle just a wee bit.

If this offends then I apologize. This is the first time I've really spoken out when something has narked me but I felt I had to say it.. please be gentle in the verbal bashing I'm probably about to receive

Moving on....
I really want the challenge to keep running. It gives me something to think about at work in this tedious world, and really keeps me sane.
apparently it's now all I talk about... other peoples entrys, what i'm hoping to turn, the panic when lathes blow up etc
And i can't wait for the monthly picture fest. Inspiring each month to say the least.
since the last hicup it has all been running fine. so keep it as it is I say. I wish I could volunteer to help in some way, but there really is nothing I can bring to the table to help. I don't have the know how, ability etc.
I think what it comes down to is Mr Blister sir. Do you still want to run it? have you had enough? is it too stressful?
nothing started for fun should cause anyone stress.

 

[cambournepete]

I'd like it to continue, and I say that as one who dropped out half-way through as I got a job and just couldn't find the time for the forum, let alone turning...

This year I plan to be more organised and compete every month.

 

[Silverbirch]

Hi Melinda,
I`d like to reply, in a friendly manner, to the points you`ve made about my entry and make a couple of comments about yours in return. I`m not the least bit offended by you making your views clear - much healthier than silently simmering! I hope you won`t be offended if I make mine clear also.
First, thanks for the compliments you paid my entry, although I don`t think it was nearly as accomplished as you suggest.
Also, I`m not "brilliant" nor do I have "many years of experience".
Secondly, my entry was partly painted(snowman and base), partly dyed(trees) and partly natural wood(tree trunks). Therefore, not too difficult to see it`s made from wood for the most part, although perhaps more difficult to see from a photo.
I`d take issue with your assertion that the rules were clearly stated. I don`t think they were, hence the differing interpretations.
One of the entry options was a Christmas tree. The rules also say "must be as festive as possible." I`d respectfully suggest that you entry is simply a tree, not a Christmas tree, as it has nothing Christmassy about it and is not in any way festive. It is finished with friction polish, which, if we`re going to be picky, isn`t mentioned in the rules either!
It`s not my intention to get back at you for your comments, but just to suggest that the rules for the challenge allowed for differing interpretations, and people have, naturally, interpreted them differently.
Anyway, I`ve said enough. I`m off to have a drink.
Have a happy New Year!

Ian

 

[Melinda_dd]

:lol: :lol:

Have a happy new year to you too ccasion5:

 

[L2wis]

My personal view is no matter how tight you try to make the rules there will always be a selection of individuals who choose to place their own skewed/preferred vision of what they mean, and on a regular basis challenge them and try and influence the general consensus round to their view.

I second this, I think relaxing the rules would decrease the amount of stress for those in charge and as CHJ says leave it down to the judges to decide if the bowls a bowl or the candlestick is a candlestick.
I've also found that when rules are set (and increased) rule interpreting (reading between the lines) happens more and more. At work they brought in a smart casual dress code and the only guidance given to the rule benders was don't wear something you would wear to a nightclub (not sure what clubs the bosses go to!)! This little guidance led to plenty of controversy!

I'd quite like to partake in next years competition but I'm not sure I'd be able to participate in every challenge. The digital prize is a great suggestion too! That way it doesn't need to cost much more than the time spent organising. What would be absolutely fantastic is if we could get a company to sponsor the competition to either provide funding or prizes!

If I was making the rules people probably wouldn't be pushed to try new things however I would just set the months objective to create a particular object so they wouldn't read any longer than the 2012 Challenge ( Project list ) thread!

 

[monkeybiter]

Fair point about tighter rules driving more devious interpretation.

Regarding trying new things; one of the great strengths and attractions of the 2011 challenge has proven to be that each month most people have been pushed out of their comfort zone, resulting in a rapid widening of experience and budding skills.

 

[gus3049]

I would just like to add my congratulations to Ian (Silverbirch) for the overall prize for the year. =D>

As Colin has said, Ian's output has been of consistently high standard all year and he is a deserving winner. Commiserations to Colin and Duncan who came so close and congrats to us all for (mostly) sticking with it and putting in an entry each month. Its as much about supporting the efforts of Allen and co as it is trying to prove we can win one of those plaques.

For anyone who found it boring, I can only say that you must have a very low threshold. Those who remained in the challenge no doubt were glued to the screen around results time as it was fascinating to see what our fellow turners had come up with. I suspect it would be no surprise that you voted against continuing. :shock:

 

[monkeybiter]

Doesn't it seem a bit strange that someone would vote to end something they don't have to be a part of? Killjoy? Everything on the forum is [obviously] free and optional. Not taking part is the 'default setting'. Wanting to stop other people doing something you're not involved in or affected by seems rather unpleasant to me.