Changing shower pull switch

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Spectric

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I worked in a large (1200 staff) office. Routinely someone came round to do PAT testing. I asked how many faulty appliances had been detected over the last few years - none! Time and money being spent reducing an almost non-existent risk to almost zero - daft.
Offices do tend to be low risk, but the employer has a duty of care to there employee's and so has to do everything possible to ensure things are safe, it is good no faults have been found but it would only take one to potentially injure someone. The biggest hazard in office enviroments are people bringing in there own chargers for phones etc which can be cheap imports that pose a significant hazard and some employers now ban the use of such equipment.

those who take safety seriously will do a generally competent DIY job
The question here is define competant, easily applied to woodworking projects because you can see the final result but with electrical you need the right test equipment, without this you cannot say whether everything is correct because you cannot see circuit impedances. A problem with electrical is that you come across so many people who will say it must be alright because it works! Gas in some ways is safer because you can smell it, but the consequences can be much worse, electricity can burn the house down but gas will totally demolish it.
 

MikeK

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It's already been changed, by a competent electrician, but the thread refuses to die...

Ah, the Internet. :) Once these threads go off tangent, there's no turning back.

In some countries like Germany things are much tighter and you need to have the right paperwork to do many things, @MikeK can shed further light on this.

Based on my experience, modifications to residential systems don't require any prior approval or inspections, but changes to the building that affect load bearing structures might need approval. Commercial property might be different, but I can make any changes to my electrical, gas, and water distribution after the meters without any approval. I did ask the local planning office if I needed permission or inspection reports to add 3-phase distribution panels to my garage and shop, and the clerk was surprised that I even bothered to ask, since the answer was "nein". I did have to get approval to put a roof on my unfinished garage because the required gutter system would feed into the city sewer system, but no permit was needed to extend an existing retaining wall an additional 20 meters in my garden.
 

Phil Pascoe

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I spent many working years doing maintenance on old buildings, half of it was spent putting right stuff supposedly professional tradesmen had done.
Several years ago when regulations weren't so tight I called a friend in to do some electrical work. He finished it, saying he didn't know why I called him as I could have done it perfectly well myself. I said could have but wasn't 100% certain. Fair enough, he said, good call. That to me is smart DIY - knowing when to stop.
 

SamG340

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If I was going to do DIY dodgy electrics (which I wouldn't ever do ... ) I certainly wouldn't post on a forum about it 😅
 

MikeJhn

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There is the ‘argument from insurance’, where if you had an accident but couldn’t produce a garage receipt for the brake work done, they could refuse payout, but thankfully this doesn’t seem to happen.
There is no argument, your insurance company and you have a contract, unless you breach that contract they can not refuse to pay your claim, the only consideration is the possibility of contributory negligence in which case the claim could be reduced, another myth perpetuated by scare mongers and those that should know better.
 
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MikeJhn

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@MikeK same in France any works to a domestic electrical installation beyond the main EDF breaker is the owners responsibility, only inspection carried out is on the sale of the property and that is only a visual and RCD button pushing exercise all carried out by Immobilier not an electrician.,
 

Bingy man

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Similar in the gas world. Only the customer can complain about an illegal installer (registered members can't) which they invariably won't because they paid a "guy down the pub cash" or they are afraid of retributions. Beggars belief! :rolleyes:
Not quite true - if I (as a registered gas safe engineer) come across a dangerous installation or appliance I’m as any other qualified engineer is required by the gas safety installation and use act to notify the hse via my line manager or directly if self employed by completing a form ( riddor) failure to do this can lead to myself being reported. It is probable that these riddor forms end up on some blokes desk collecting dust until unfortunately a death or explosion. The reference to buying electrical safety components, breaks for cars is a fair point , but the same within the gas industry is also true - b/q s/fix t/station will sell anyone gas parts and fittings but the specialist parts centres will ask for your gas safe number -absolute madness but the onus is on the customer to employ “ qualified “ tradesmen and to check their credentials. In the 30 or so years I’ve been a gas engineer I can only recall one engineer being struck off for dangerous work but he was a repeat offender and he stuck his head above the parapet too many times . Btw -in the event of a court case - registered gas engineers who break the regulations will face the full weight of the law as they are deemed competent but the average joe will get a slap on the wrist or fine as they will be deemed incompetent .
 

Pedronicus

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Not quite true - if I (as a registered gas safe engineer) come across a dangerous installation or appliance I’m as any other qualified engineer is required by the gas safety installation and use act to notify the hse via my line manager or directly if self employed by completing a form ( riddor) failure to do this can lead to myself being reported. It is probable that these riddor forms end up on some blokes desk collecting dust until unfortunately a death or explosion. The reference to buying electrical safety components, breaks for cars is a fair point , but the same within the gas industry is also true - b/q s/fix t/station will sell anyone gas parts and fittings but the specialist parts centres will ask for your gas safe number -absolute madness but the onus is on the customer to employ “ qualified “ tradesmen and to check their credentials. In the 30 or so years I’ve been a gas engineer I can only recall one engineer being struck off for dangerous work but he was a repeat offender and he stuck his head above the parapet too many times . Btw -in the event of a court case - registered gas engineers who break the regulations will face the full weight of the law as they are deemed competent but the average joe will get a slap on the wrist or fine as they will be deemed incompetent .
I am fully aware of the RIDDOR scheme and have used it many times since I started in the gas industry 40+ years ago. Not once (to my knowledge) have any of the forms I issued been acted upon so I would agree that they are collecting dust somewhere. I have also, on several occasions, called in the gas transporter to 'dig & cap' a supply externally when the user has refused permission for me to cap off an ID installation.
 

deema

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I campaigned against moving from requiring the person to be competent to one of passing a specific exam. The issue arises; apart from complete negligence…..like 1mm wire on a cooker for instance: is that as soon as the person leaves the premises the issue is to prove that their work was sloppy and not the homeowner tinkering subsequently. It applies to most things, and is the complete get out of jail free card.
 

Bingy man

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I am fully aware of the RIDDOR scheme and have used it many times since I started in the gas industry 40+ years ago. Not once (to my knowledge) have any of the forms I issued been acted upon so I would agree that they are collecting dust somewhere. I have also, on several occasions, called in the gas transporter to 'dig & cap' a supply externally when the user has refused permission for me to cap off an ID installation.
Clearly as a fellow gas engineer you did your job to the best of your knowledge and understanding of the trade - as did I , you do what is expected of you in sometimes stressful situations and yes I could never understand a customer refusing a I d appliance or installation deemed unsafe . Had a bloke punch me in the ribs once as the open flue boiler in his daughters home ( + 6 month old baby ) was beyond dangerous it was a death trap - had all the usual talks with him but he stood his ground so I did the same . Waited for the emergency crew to turn up and dig up his supply- police turned up as he had a go at the engineer digging up his drive -he got done for assault and had to go to court , he had to pay for the emergency crew and then for a new boiler and pay again to get his supply reconnected -all for refusing a disconetion to 1 appliance-the word is full of difficult customers and even more so called tradesmen/ qualified engineers of every type and unfortunately some choose the easy way out taking shortcuts in others safety. Hence any advice I give concerning gas electricity car brakes structional engineering etc is to seek the expertise of a professional and of course check/ confirm there credentials. Action is rarely taken unless there is a death or serious injury and then it’s a case of who is to blame , who can I claim thousands of pounds from - take care - btw my days as a gas engineer are pretty much over as I refuse to sacrifice safety over how many jobs I’ve completed and how many extra products have I sold ( b. Gas)
 

morqthana

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you can obtain all the degrees in the world and still not be able to sign off an EICR or a Part P application
No and yes.

The problem with EICs and EICRs is how much store people will put by them if you're not a"registered" electrician. But sign them you may. It would be wise to have a genuine reason for believing you can claim sufficient competence. Part P is only about safety, but I know what you mean. Yes, unregistered means you can't self-certify compliance, but there's no prohibition on unregistered people doing notifiable work if Building Control are OK with them doing it. And paying Building Control their fee, of course.
 

morqthana

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Yes we need at least the equivalent of gas safe for the electrical trade but I don't think there is any support for such a move otherwise Joe down the pub would not be able to nip into somewhere and just buy a new consumer unit or protective devices.
Actually Joe down the pub can nip off somewhere and buy copper pipe and gas appliances - remember DIY gas work is not illegal if it is done competently, it's only doing it for reward where you need to be registered.

A GasSafe (or Corgi as was at the time) equivalent monopoly was what NICEIC and the ECA wanted when for years they lobbied for that sort of protection to stop plumbers and kitchen fitters and bathroom fitters etc taking "their" work. And then as soon as they had it, there was the kerchinggg-moment when they realised how much money they could make by turning plumbers and kitchen fitters and bathroom fitters etc into Domestic Installers.
 

Argus

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It's already been changed, by a competent electrician, but the thread refuses to die...

There's a definite feeling of loss hereabouts that the old-style 'sharpening' threads are no more!

'Electrical competence' is in a totally different league, but just as entertaining! (y)
(y)(y)
 

Phil Pascoe

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I campaigned against moving from requiring the person to be competent to one of passing a specific exam. The issue arises; apart from complete negligence…..like 1mm wire on a cooker for instance: is that as soon as the person leaves the premises the issue is to prove that their work was sloppy and not the homeowner tinkering subsequently. It applies to most things, and is the complete get out of jail free card.
I moved into my first house and found the cooker was supplied by a 6mm lead sheathed cable ......... a spur from the 1mm dining room light.
 

morqthana

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The electrical trade in the UK is a real shambles, no professional qualifications required, but still some electricians call themselves professionals,
If they charge for it then that makes them a professional as opposed to an amateur. No guarantee of course that they'll not be amateurish in their work, or that an amateur can't demonstrate great professionalism in his.

until such time as a professional qualification is available for an electrician..
Unless when you use that word you imagine it with a capital P, as in "Professions" like doctor, lawyer, accountant etc, then there are qualifications - the full C&G set, and someone with those can quite reasonably consider himself qualified, and as long as he also has a responsible attitude to the need for experience as well, there should be no problems. The problem is not that there are no qualifications, the problem is that there are also inadequate qualifications, and laws which permit commercial self-serving organisations to make money by encouraging under-qualified under-experienced people to pass themselves off as proper electricians.
 

morqthana

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In a joke recently it was about the Scheme providers.

What we need is a consolidation of all the Schemes to provide a one and for all guidance, at the moment we have three or four, all agreed and we now have five.
One Scheme to rule them all, One Scheme to find them,
One Scheme to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
 

morqthana

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A problem with electrical is that you come across so many people who will say it must be alright because it works!
It wasn't ever so long ago that the only "testing" that "proper" electricians did was the bang one.


Gas in some ways is safer because you can smell it, but the consequences can be much worse, electricity can burn the house down but gas will totally demolish it.
I read something once which amused me -'You can get a small electrical fire. There is no such thing as a small gas explosion.'
 

Spectric

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It wasn't ever so long ago that the only "testing" that "proper" electricians did was the bang one.
We have had insulation testers for decades, very important when runing MIC but even they were windup and I reckon we were a lot fitter as well then having to manually bend, offset and thread conduit and the brace and bit was standard kit but now electric benders, threading machines and cordless drivers, they have it so easy except for the paperwork.
 
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