Challenge - 18th century transport box design and materials?

[Thomas]

Hello All!!!

I have a specific wood work puzzle that needs experienced minds.

I am trying to design a box to replicate 18th century styled, wooden transport box. Such a box would have been used to ship new discoveries / specimens, back to their homeland / sponsors. But the challenge is to get it to fit a modern specification for postage.


HAS to be lightweight for postage.

If real wood it must be less than 6mm thick to get through legislation for wood products (ISPN15)

Dimensions – likely to be 15cm deep, 15cm wide, 60 cm high – but dimensions may vary.



MY QUESTIONS:

What design do you suggest? (I foresee a very basic design with a lid that sits on top and is held in place somehow. No need for hinges)

What wood would you suggest?

What equipment would I need to acquire?



ANY AND ALL YOUR IDEAS VERY WELCOME!!

Your Friend,
Thomas

 

[Dee J]

An interesting project, but I think you've set yourself quite a challenge. Lightweight wooden shipping boxes are not unusual, but your requirement for thin solid timber to cope with the challenges of the postal service is a tall order. Plywood has long supplemented solid wood in some aspects of construction.
Some examples of solid timber and ply boxes.
https://shop.gtprospect.co.uk/wine-...h-lid-and-decorative-clasp-5060797100371.htmlOr
https://www.turmeaus.co.uk/empty-cigar-boxes-wooden-type-large-lucky-dip-p-13585.htmlOr the classic all-plywood shipping box
https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/400...ClvL4kDLjo_TA6AeenUZ5AwTckt1OA8AaAva_EALw_wcB

 

[Dee J]

.... and tea chests have a suitably distinguished history Tea Chests | Boston Tea Party Chests.

 

[Thomas]

An interesting project, but I think you've set yourself quite a challenge. Lightweight wooden shipping boxes are not unusual, but your requirement for thin solid timber to cope with the challenges of the postal service is a tall order. Plywood has long supplemented solid wood in some aspects of construction.
Some examples of solid timber and ply boxes.
https://shop.gtprospect.co.uk/wine-...h-lid-and-decorative-clasp-5060797100371.htmlOr
https://www.turmeaus.co.uk/empty-cigar-boxes-wooden-type-large-lucky-dip-p-13585.htmlOr the classic all-plywood shipping box
https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/400...ClvL4kDLjo_TA6AeenUZ5AwTckt1OA8AaAva_EALw_wcB

Thanks Dee J, very much appreciate good eyes on this before I start out.

So you think plywood is better choice? In my mind the real wood was the authentic choice but I am not fixed on exact choice.

My I ask if there is (1) a significant weight difference and (2) how does cost of plywood compare?

What are your thoughts?

 

[Dee J]

For robust structures of the scale you're proposing, it would be difficult to achieve in solid wood under 12mm thickness, whereas plywood as thin a 3mm could work. Probably little to chose in price. You may have to investigate novel/commercial joining methods for very thin materials - witness the metal banding techniques on tea chests or the staple wire link connectors on some vegetable boxes.
You are mixing the requirements of two different periods. High value specimens of the 18th century might have been shipped in beautifully constructed mahogany boxes - but not as thin and light as your modern postal requirements.

 

[TheUnicorn]

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to achieve that isn't already done by a cardboard box

 

[Thomas]

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to achieve that isn't already done by a cardboard box

Thanks 'TheUnicorn'! You might have a point. I have thought about cardboard and it would certainly be cheaper, lighter and less expensive to post.

However I was trying to make a strong 'authentic statement / story .

All that said though what are your thoughts, you likely know more than me!

T

 

[TheUnicorn]

Some photos of what you are trying to replicate might help here.

As I say, I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve that couldn't be done with cardboard. Wood is out as far as I can see for weight, so I'd be looking at ply. As far as a lid, you could maybe look into Japanese toolboxes which use a wedge to secure. Your tolerances in terms of thicknesses are going to be tight.

A cnc might be very helpful if you were wanting to make a lot of these, it terms of exact repeatable pieces, which could be designed to lock together with finger joints.

 

[thetyreman]

in the actual 18th century they didn't use 6mm thick sides, they would have very likely used dovetailed chests for transporting stuff, and coffers or crates made out of pine which are simply nailed together but with hand made blacksmith forged cut nails, make sure you use pine as well to keep the weight down..

 

[Thomas]

Some photos of what you are trying to replicate might help here.

As I say, I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve that couldn't be done with cardboard. Wood is out as far as I can see for weight, so I'd be looking at ply. As far as a lid, you could maybe look into Japanese toolboxes which use a wedge to secure. Your tolerances in terms of thicknesses are going to be tight.

A cnc might be very helpful if you were wanting to make a lot of these, it terms of exact repeatable pieces, which could be designed to lock together with finger joints.

Hi TheUnicorn and all!

Thanks for your comments.

My basic need / concept is this: I need a transport box for single, small botanical specimens (plants) and associated paper-based documentation. The whole thing should be aesthetically pleasing for the recipient. I am trying to style it in line with 18th century wood box, used at that time. Cardboard is an alternative but i cant see how it is convincing when it comes to the period value. It would undoubtedly make the whole thing cheaper.

Hope that explains what I am trying to achieve.

I would love to have your thoughts or those of anyone on how I could design this with authenticity in mind. (Other details on above posts)

 

[Thomas]

in the actual 18th century they didn't use 6mm thick sides, they would have very likely used dovetailed chests for transporting stuff, and coffers or crates made out of pine which are simply nailed together but with hand made blacksmith forged cut nails, make sure you use pine as well to keep the weight down..

Thanks Tyreman, 6mm is just for solid wood custom requirements. As i understand, if I am posting shipping a wooden box it has to be within ISPN15 which dictates what thickness or treatment to make it pest free. Processed wood is acceptable and has no thickness requirements.

What do you think, others have said that 6mm solid wood would not be substantial enough. Should i begin seriouly considering ply???

Open to suggestions from everyon!

 

[samhay]

It's not unusual to get bottles of wine delivered in wooden boxes. You can buy the boxes on e.g. eBay. Some of them are made from solid wood - pine or similar softwood. There are various sizes available to hold different numbers of bottles. The better ones have finger joints. They seem to survive the postal service, although they may ship inside a cardboard box.

 

[Thomas]

It's not unusual to get bottles of wine delivered in wooden boxes. You can buy the boxes on e.g. eBay. Some of them are made from solid wood - pine or similar softwood. There are various sizes available to hold different numbers of bottles. The better ones have finger joints. They seem to survive the postal service, although they may ship inside a cardboard box.

Yes good point! I have talked with many companies but the sizes are just not what I need so a friend in America suggested either getting the timber cut and I build or alternatively I do the whole process.

What do you think?

 

[thetyreman]

Thanks Tyreman, 6mm is just for solid wood custom requirements. As i understand, if I am posting shipping a wooden box it has to be within ISPN15 which dictates what thickness or treatment to make it pest free. Processed wood is acceptable and has no thickness requirements.

What do you think, others have said that 6mm solid wood would not be substantial enough. Should i begin seriouly considering ply???

Open to suggestions from everyon!

what's going to be inside the box? also why processed wood? unsorted redwood pine is cheap and lightweight, you might need to look at plywood but how will you join the wood together? I ask because that makes a big difference to the strength, you should always over engineer it though so it can withstand abuse from angry bitter middle aged postal workers who have given up on life.

 

[Jacob]

4mm ply. Add a layer of redwood (or anything) at a convenient thickness to handle, then when dry plane it back to finish at 6mm?

 

[Thomas]

what's going to be inside the box? also why processed wood? unsorted redwood is cheap and lightweight, you might need to look at plywood but how will you join the wood together? I ask because that makes a big difference to the strength, you should always over engineer it though so it can withstand abuse from angry postal workers.

(1) Contents - Plant - circa 50 cm. Rootball (likely in wood pot, or other way if you have ideas) Somehow designed into it will have to be something for holding the paper documents about the plant species.

(2) processed wood - If I use solid wood then it must be max 6mm in thickness dicated by law, or specially treated. Processed wood has no stipulations. (not as attractive though, i think)

(3) Unsorted redwood - not sure what this is but I do remember redwood was lighter than pine.

(4) joints, design and construction thats why I am appealing to all you guys - i am not a specialist in woodworking but want to get a good box design to make or for someone to produce.

 

[paulrbarnard]

I would go with laser cut finger jointed ply. It’s probably the only way the cost weight strength equation is going to work. You also have many wood choices in the ply and different grades. You can make them look as upmarket or utility as you like.

 

[Thomas]

4mm ply. Add a layer of redwood (or anything) at a convenient thickness to handle, then when dry plane it back to finish at 6mm?
[/QUOTE\]
Hi J,

Like a veneer? I want to produce many of these so would this not be time consuming construction method?

 

[Thomas]

I would go with laser cut finger jointed ply. It’s probably the only way the cost weight strength equation is going to work. You also have many wood choices in the ply and different grades. You can make them look as upmarket or utility as you like.

Thanks P, Sounds a little technical and expensive machine??? maybe could get company with that service - true. Like your comment - cost weight strength equation - thats exactly the issue!!

 

[thetyreman]

redwood is just a species of pine, european redwood. (pinus sylvestris)