British Seagull motor rebuild?

[Chris152]

My son found this in a shed at his gran's house yesterday. It's a Seagull outboard that's been in the shed 40 years since last used, and wasn't prepped for storage and the shed's pretty damp. The prop turns, and things on the outside that are supposed to move, do. He wants to try to rebuild it, but I'm wondering if that's likely to be possible without spending a fortune.

I found this website
http://www.saving-old-seagulls.co.uk/index.html
but before getting involved with any detail wondered if those of you who know about restoration of old motors had any thoughts?
Thanks for any thoughts.
Chris
edit - he's itching to start taking it apart today - is it a bad idea to just start stripping it down, or can he get on with it so long as he keeps a photo record of where each part comes from? I've no idea about these things.

 

[novocaine]

1. remove the spark plug , can you turn it over by hand?

if yes, then remove the fuel tank, rig up a temporary tank and put about 100ml of fuel oil mix in it (2 stroke baby), pull over with the plug out, if you get fuel in the cylinder, pull it over a few more times then walk away for 10 minutes.

2. check the plug fires (stick it in the cap and pull the engine over with the plug resting on head, look for the spark) if you have a spark put it in the hole and try to start it, you'll be pulling like a monkey at the zoo but it might start. if it does, yey, now strip it and clean everything, if it doesn't booo, still strip it but now you're in to diagnosis of issues (if you have a spark, it's the carb, strip, clean, etc).

is it worth rebuilding? hell yes, and it gives your son something new to learn, it won't cost the earth to get it running, you'll need gaskets, pipes, rubber bits as they will all be dead, I'd have thought and assuming nothing is broken a good clean and rub down of parts covered in oxidization maybe all it needs, a splash of paint won't hurt. parts for the carb are dirt cheap if needed, assuming it turns over there isn't much in the engine itself to go wrong (rings maybe gummed up and need cleaning or replacing).

 

[Chris152]

Thanks Novocaine.
1. What's the reason for using a temporary tank? I wouldn't know how to do that! If we flush the old one a bit would that be ok?
2. Should the plug actually spark to the head? (Didn't understand why it needs to rest on the head...)

Don't worry, you won't have to coach us through every step, I'll take this to a seagull forum if it looks like it's do-able! But it'd be great to do the checks you've suggested just to know what shape it might be in. And what you say about him learning is the bottom line, he really wants to do a motor bike but i'm not so keen on that...
Cheers
C

 

[custard]

Is it worth rebuilding?

Absolutely! Down here on the Solent there are loads of Seagulls still chugging along. They're like Morris Minors or Land Rovers, bomb proof and everyone feels better for just seeing one.

https://www.britishseagull.com/technicaltips.php

 

[Chris152]

Thanks for that custard. The paragraph (in your link):
'Apart from fresh fuel (as above), it is the corrosion caused by storing the engine somewhere warm, after use in salt-water, that does the damage. Usually cleaning the magneto and coil contacts and cleaning and re-gapping the spark plug and contact set is sufficient to regain the spark.'
adds to what novocaine's written and will give us something positive to work on today - once we've brushed, vacuumed and just looked at it for a while, which we can just about manage without searching additional info on the net!

 

[mbartlett99]

Dads got one from 1947 - they're like cockroaches, will survive a nuclear blast. Hell, the bugger might even start up off the bat. And they are worth reselling too.

 

[novocaine]

temporary tank, also known as a pop bottle and a bit of tube to the carb. because that tank is steel and rusty right now, you don't want to pull in rust, also, 20 years, with fuel that sucks up water, you might find it's a bit leaky. I assume you've got some 2 stroke oil, not sure what the mix is for these little things but 2-1 is a good place to start (reckon the seagull forum will tell you though).

the plug needs to be earthed, hence resting on the head, it will spark across the gap of the plug. if it doesn't spark it maybe the plug (we'll test that once we know if it sparks) it could be the magneto or the coil or the HT leads, all easy to check but a quick test first saves tearing stuff apart.
3 rules of engine diagnostics (not including the obvious, is it turned on). does it turn, does it spark, does it get fuel. everything else is a nuance.

 

[novocaine]

if you want to do something that feels like you've achieved, take all the stuff that isn't engine related off (like the handle and such) and get him cleaning it with wire wool and WD40 (because it is the elixir of life and every striving young mechanic should learn to love the smell).

 

[Chris152]

Ok, test as per the photo (the block's buried under the fuel tank and starter thingy, so it's on the fuel tank which is completely dry) and no spark so far when I pull the chord.

The plug's a weird one with the top bit of metal arranged to the side of the centre (based on vague memories of working on cars when I was younger!), so I'm guessing if it's faulty it'll be mail order.

if you want to do something that feels like you've achieved, take all the stuff that isn't engine related off (like the handle and such) and get him cleaning it with wire wool and WD40 (because it is the elixir of life and every striving young mechanic should learn to love the smell).

That's great - I'll get him started on that. I've said we'll do this as a winter rebuild to manage his impatience, but it's good to get some momentum at the start.

oops - just realised we've started with your second task - I don't have any tube to start on the first, we'll head out later to get some.

 

[novocaine]

the tank is probably not earthed and it's painted so you aren't going to get a good contact. get a pair of pliers and holding the plug cap with them, hold the plug against the head (the bit the plug came out of).
an off centre electrode was an attempt to get a cleaner path for a spark, you can fit a standard plug in there easy enough.
if that doesn't work, select your least favorite screw driver and jam it in the plug cap (remove the plug first), hold the handle not the metal the put it about 2mm from the head and pull the engine over, if there is any live it will spark to the head and the plugs dead, if it doesn't, clean the magneto, which means pulling the starter real off.
this is a great chance to give your son a jolt and teach him that sometimes it's dangerous to play with electrickary.

Edit, that tank looks like it's ali, so give it a good swill out and you'll be fine, but do replace the pipe, it's fecked.

 

[Chris152]

What's your hourly rate for online tutoring, novocaine? No spark - but the boy wonders if the whole thing's not earthed? This is how we're holding it, and it looks like there's ali between the block and the vise - should the prop be touching the floor?

 

[sunnybob]

Just to expand on novocanes message a little bit;
Use insulated handle pliers, because although theres no amps to kill you, 20,000 volts stings a little bit! :shock: :shock:
Hold the plug with the pliers, hold the THREAD of the plug firmly against a bare metal part of the head. Then carry on as above. 8)

 

[Chris152]

Thanks Bob - the pliers have plastic handles (= insulated?) but wouldn't reach around the plug cover, so I attached a 'hinge' to the cover so I could hold it with the pliers. So hopefully safe, and I'm doing the holding while he does the pulling.
On the earthed/ not earthed question, Could I hold the plug against the metal vise on the bench instead of on the block?

aha - and hold the thread against the block - i was holding the outer metal bit of the plug. God, we're both learning lots here.

 

[sunnybob]

You have to have a circuit for ALL electrics to work. The engine block is the circuit.
magneto, lead, plug, engine, magneto.
A separate piece of metal will never give you a spark

 

[novocaine]

edited because I got all out of order.
ok earthing is a bit of a misnomer, sorry.

the engine itself is the earth in this case but if it helps we shall call it negative.
no spark, for what it's worth, give it about 20-30 pulls without the plug in then test again, they can take a few cranks to get the old juices flowing and a spark to get going if they've been laid up for a while.
then check the points, under the fly wheel so remove the start real and the flywheel and look for where the HT lead goes, pull the top of and you'll see the points, check the gap and clean the contacts with a little bit of emery paper (gap is 0.5mm apparantly)

as your in there clean the fly wheel and the magneto.

also, once it's got a spark you really need to start it with the prop in a bucket of water.

 

[novocaine]

just had a chat with the captain (not really a captain, but he wears the nickname well fora guy with a dingy), he said stick a socket on the flywheel nut, attach a drill and spin it for something like 5 minutes at as fast as the drill can handle. pulling it by hand 30 times is hard work, let the drill do it instead.
edit: also, you're going to want to pull it so hard it nearly falls of it's mounts, at which point as it teatters on falling in your bucket it will decide to start and you'll be grabbing for it to stop it before it falls off. his words not mine.

 

[Chris152]

Earth/ negative circuit understood (well, sort of)! Getting the flywheel off was a palava all of its own but we managed without breaking it, cleaned the points and the boy's now headed off to the shops to buy a feeler gauge. We did the 30 pulls trick (well, he did) but will try the drill option if still nothing. And got the starting up/ bucket/ strong mount point! Don't want it waving about in the air if we manage to get the prop running... FWIW, he's loving this and learning all the while.

 

[sunnybob]

Text him quick to buy a new spark plug while he's there. 4 quid at most.
Raed the number off the side of the plug for him to get the correct size.

 

[novocaine]

first lesson, a *** packet is about 0.5mm thick. so now he's getting a motorbike and learning how to smoke, oh how they grow up so fast.

captain said something about clean the coil and the contacts to it. the reason for spinning it was something about building magnetism in the flywheel.

 

[Chris152]

He was back before I could call him about the plug - they didn't have a feeler gauge anyway (local hardware store, think four candles/ fork handles, brilliant shop but a dying breed). Which means Halfords, I guess, and that means a trip out later so probably end of play for today. The plug has 8 COM written on it - is that the info they'll need to replace it?
And yea, *** packets and motorcycles, just what we need. :shock: ha.
Meanwhile, we've made great progress with cleaning up the handle a bit...

Think you'll have to agree we've made spectacular progress with that.
Thanks all for your patience, lots learned so far.