Augmented reality

[János]

Dear Members,

I must admit that I have made you a participant in a little experiment of mine, in anticipation of your consent. There has been a long thread about Japanese chisels.
japanese-chisel-problem-tool-or-user-t49457-30.html

I copied into it a table and a part of the text from a test, conducted and published by FWW in 1985. The author and one of the testers was Bill Stankus. I mentioned that I find this test interesting. I laid out the trap, and waited for the results. Till this moment no one of you have mentioned, that he/she found the test faulty. But in fact, it was a faulty test, conducted to produce a very clever and cunning piece of advertising and marketing. I find it quite amazing, that so far I am the only one, who spotted, that the author compared the edge holding ability of Western chisels sharpened to 25 deg. to Japanese chisel, which were sharpened to 30 deg. Et voila: the Japanese ones held their edges better. Yeah, these are supertools… And this was hidden into a scientific test of tool steel hardness, and the tool steel test itself was correct, and showed no real difference between the chisels tested.

And yes, you were given the info, that they sharpened the Japanese chisels to a greater bevel angle, so annulled the scientific value of the test, but this was disguised into a tirade about their superior manufacturing quality.

That is, what I call augmented/arranged reality. And woodworkers are subjected to this practice in quite a few magazines, books, and elsewhere… :wink:

Be wary, my dear friends, be wary…

János

 

[studders]

Huh? :?

 

[Modernist]

It's OK Janos, no need to worry, we have Jacob.

 

[jimi43]

I don't bother with tests other than those which I conduct myself...hence trying every sharpening system until I am happy and then keeping an open mind.

I don't understand why you feel it necessary to post this thread at all...perhaps you need to explain yourself a bit better as to the motive of your posting.

Jim

 

[Harbo]

Janos - are you paranoid about marketing in general or Japanese tools in particular?

"Experiment", "trap " - get real.
If you want serious comments on an article published in 1985 - 36 years ago, perhaps you should have included it in full?

What about the chisel review FWW published about 4/5 years ago where LN and Matsumura chisels came out the best - was that test corrupt too?
There has always been rumours that reviews can be subjected to Advertisers influence but I am equally sure that the members on this Forum who do some, will strongly deny this.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating - I have both LN, AI and Japanese Chisels - they all work well!!

Rod

 

[jimi43]

...I have both LN, AI and Japanese Chisels - they all work well!!

.amongst my chisels are....and a total devotion to the Pope.... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :wink:

Sorry Rod...could not resist a smidgen of Python! 8)

Jim

 

[dh7892]

I agree that testing one chisel against one sharpened at a different angle might not be the fairest test but it might not be fair to test tham at the same angle either. They are different geometrically and in terms of their metalergy. In order to say which is best (whatever that means) one should first perform an optimisation study to see the optimum angle at which to sharpen each and then compare both optima.

If the optimum angle for the Japanese chisel was 20 degrees and that for the other chisel was 30 degrees then the test was fair.

I would always be wary of any "evidence" that one tool is better than another if the source has reason to be biased. A lot of products seem to take the following marketing strategy:

Take an existing product that works well.
Add/remove something so that it is differentiable from other brands
Invent a reason why what we've taken/added improves performance
Market based on the above

 

[Harbo]

That's OK Jimi - in my aged and muddled head I was thinking of Western & Japanese chisels as "both" and AI was an after thought.
I stand corrected. #-o

Rod

 

[jimi43]

That's OK Jimi - in my aged and muddled head I was thinking of Western & Japanese chisels as "both" and AI was an after thought.
I stand corrected. #-o

Rod

Hi Rod...

That's ok mate...only joshing with you...

What is the collective noun for pedants I wonder?

Answers on a postcard to...... :wink: :mrgreen:

Jim

 

[Karl]

And of course 1986 wasn't 36 years ago either..... :lol:

Cheers

Karl

 

[Harbo]

Oops 1985 was 26 years ago - should have used a calculator?
Still a long time ago!


Rod

 

[barkwindjammer]

Dear Members,

I must admit . . . .
And yes, you were given the info, that they sharpened the Japanese chisels to a greater bevel angle, so annulled . . . etc etc

That is, what I call augmented/arranged reality.
blah blah blah
Be wary, my dear friends, be wary…

János

 

[jimi43]

A promenade of pedants.... :idea:

That's the one! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

 

[János]

Hello to all,

My "experiment" served more than one purpose. The first was to show you, that men (Including me) have a tendency to miss real points, important facts and circumstances.
The second, to show how seemingly correct and "scientifically looking" tests, using flawed methodology, or unknown/unpublished standards/references can be used to convey a feeling of "trustworthiness" and sell you ....what? "FACTS" :roll: In this case, to compare Japanese chisels, ground to 30 deg., to Western ones ground to 25 deg. (and telling, that most of woodworkers grind their chisels to that angle) is deliberately flawed methodology. Any chisel ground to a larger angle would hold its edge longer. And, as you, woodworkers know, a chisel ground to a 20% larger bevel angle, will require larger force to cut, as the edge will be less keener. And that really counts in hand chiseling, I think.
The third, to show, how myths and lore is started. A few "slightly bent" reviews, a few readers not wary enough, and a myth was born. I remember the beginnings of Japanese tool fever, the frantic about A2 steel, and a few other cases...

I am a sceptic, simply put. And an advocate of common sense. :wink:

Have a nice day,

János

 

[studders]

Well, thank goodness you're here to show us the light, is all I can say.

 

[matthewwh]

Janos makes a valid point, albeit in a rather more theatrical manner than we are used to :shock: .

Steeper bevels will give better edge durability (up to the 'point of optimality' for the want of a better expression) at the expense of a little sharpness.

Having said that it is hardly a scientific test and even if it were, there is a heck of a lot more wrong with it than excluding the consideration of bevel angles.

It was however, interesting to note that they mentioned carbides which help with edge retention at the expense of edge quality. I believe we will be hearing a lot more about them (or the lack of them in some of the new super spendy tool steels) soon.

 

[Jacob]

..... Till this moment no one of you have mentioned, that he/she found the test faulty.

I didn't bother reading it - I guessed it was nonsense at first glance. There's a lot of it about, of a similar type.

But in fact, it was a faulty test, conducted to produce a very clever and cunning piece of advertising and marketing.

Surprise, surprise!
Advertising and marketing woodwork tools? Surely not!

.....

That is, what I call augmented/arranged reality. And woodworkers are subjected to this practice in quite a few magazines, books, and elsewhere…....
János

I don't read magazines for this very reason. I do read books, but most of the toolie nonsense is relatively recent and isn't found in older books. Nor the product placement and blatant promotion of certain brands.
Actually that quasi-religious zeal surrounding expensive tools and woodworking personalities is quite recent. I hadn't looked at mags for years and I'd been away from forums for some time until I came back (to this one) about 5 years ago, and discovered that everybody was in a trance about LN, LV, Jap tools, St Jim Krenov (patron saint of whatnots), crazy sharpening fashions, etc.
It was all new to me. :shock:

 

[Vann]

I believe we will be hearing a lot more about them (or the lack of them in some of the new super spendy tool steels) soon.

Are you picking on a certain colonial person with a South African accent?

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Alf]

Deary me, I had to do an awful lot of clicking to display posts in this thread to have a clue what it was on about - splendid thing, the ignore list.

Just for general reference, it appears to me that only the really rather gullible take any notice of FWW's pseudo-scientific tests. Every time I've been around on various fora when one comes out related to hand tools, it's usually picked apart and demonstrated to be loaded with nonsense within two days of publication. Tops. The only difference with one from the 80s is presumably you had to pick it apart all on your own - or maybe in a pub with friends.

 

[bugbear]

I don't bother with tests other than those which I conduct myself.

Very noble (or something), but involves rather more work that I'm prepare to go to.

most people are fairly clear about the circumstances of their tests, and as such, I will take such information as is available.

The thoughts of ignoring such efforts as Brent Beach and Steve Elliot fill me with horror.

BugBear