At least I might be able to start a scrap metal business...

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guineafowl21

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“Given as my motor only shows a rating for 380/420v is their anything else I need to be considering?”

Your motor is wired in permanent star, and requires 3ph 400V. If you want to keep it, your options are:

1. Run it on a step-up inverter (try Drives Direct). These are expensive.

2. Run it on a standard inverter (3ph 230V) at 29Hz. It will run at 2/3 speed. You can alter the pulleys to correct the blade speed.

3. Get a motor shop to dig out the star point and allow delta conversion, then run on a standard inverter at normal speed.

If you can, I would go for (3). If you’re reasonably electrically competent, as Fitzroy has mentioned, you can do it yourself.

If you’re not set on keeping the motor, change it for a single phase one, or (a better option, I think) change it for a new three phase one. A three phase motor will be cheaper and better, and running that on an inverter/VFD will retain the ability to run on 1ph or 3ph, and give you overload, NVR, soft start, reverse, speed control and even braking, depending on the unit.
 

WaldoBarnstormer

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Thanks guineafowl21. You have just confirmed what i was 90% sure about..

I'm in no hurry to sort this now but I've got to say I think I'm now leaning towards a new motor for it. A single phase 2hp, whilst not being the best/most versatile option for the machine, solves all my issues regarding power supply availability and will also be fine for my needs.
I'll have a look into a new 3ph & inverter combo as well...

I'll need to sort out pulley issues etc but that can happen down the road when I know new shaft diameters etc..
 

WaldoBarnstormer

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Hmmmmmmm... A thought has just entered my head (dangerous!)..

I've been playing with the idea of getting a workbee CNC machine for a few months now and straight out of the bag one of the best upgrades for them is a 2.2kw spindle, which would require an inverter.

Now if I had a 3ph inverter already in the garage, but instead of hardwiring it direct to the tablesaw motor I went for a connection to a 3ph socket, I could run both machines from the same inverter as they'll never both be running at the same time!

Annotation 2020-07-17 105920.jpg
 

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Ttrees

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guineafowl21":758bi3tj said:
“Given as my motor only shows a rating for 380/420v is their anything else I need to be considering?”

Your motor is wired in permanent star, and requires 3ph 400V. If you want to keep it, your options are:

1. Run it on a step-up inverter (try Drives Direct). These are expensive.

Not that I've used this specific model of inverter, but I'd like to know
what's the problem with the likes of this VFD?


This post might be of help as it has a lot of links in it regarding switches and parameters and general
talk about features on the el cheapo inverters
It might help with studying the PDF.
adding-casters-to-a-startrite-275-table-saw-t118261.html?hilit=huanyang
P.s...
I may have some wrongly stated facts in these threads regarding VFD's not being suitable for business with some 10 second machine stopped and isolated rule which is untrue in the UK.

Sorted out the switch problem I was having ,as I thought a relay/common for 3 wire control was faulty, maybe so, but that can be fixed by allocating another spare terminal to function as the common, so you can have a separate start and stop button to suit a paddle switch.

And made an incorrect comment regarding having SY cable between motor and VFD, in that it eliminates any phantom earth leakage that interferes with your workshop radio.
I couldn't make sense of Deema's comment, but nevermind, not a problem with my radio.
I have my VFD bolted onto my machine base (close to the motor which may be the reason I don't experience any additional frequency noise or radio interference. :?
This may be worth looking into if you have a defib or pacemaker, I won't claim to know anything about that, but I'm under the impression that this has more to do with different machinery and not simple machines like a tablesaw or bandsaw.

Tom
 

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Ttrees

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WaldoBarnstormer" Now if I had a 3ph inverter already in the garage said:
Messy, lots of opportunities for things to go wrong, and I can think of lots.
Apart from the dangers which are mentioned in the links,
You would have to make a detachable button station that would affix to each machine,
(have to be a damn good job for a tablesaw)
and change the parameters everytime you swapped over machines.
A wire would get snagged somewhere me thinks, mainly switchgear.

Still hoping someone clears up why you just couldn't buy a 230 in 380v out instead of
digging out windings.
First thing I would do is look under the motor terminal cover for clarification of a fixed star wound
or not, some say only star or wye but some can be dual voltage.

Regards
Tom
 

Myfordman

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WaldoBarnstormer":gdewfyfa said:
Hmmmmmmm... A thought has just entered my head (dangerous!)..

I've been playing with the idea of getting a workbee CNC machine for a few months now and straight out of the bag one of the best upgrades for them is a 2.2kw spindle, which would require an inverter.

Now if I had a 3ph inverter already in the garage, but instead of hardwiring it direct to the tablesaw motor I went for a connection to a 3ph socket, I could run both machines from the same inverter as they'll never both be running at the same time!


This is NOT a good idea. firstly having a connector on the output of the inverter runs the risk of one day you or someone disconnecting it when a motor is running and damaging the inverter.
Secondly the inverter will need significant reprogramming every time you change from the 50 Hz applications like your saw to the 400Hz settings needed for the CNC spindle. A lot of the setting are there to protect and sense problems with a specific motor and will have to be changed. The CNC inverter should be a vector control type to optimise the speed control that will be sent from your CNC software.
The saw should be quite happy running from a V to F controlled inverter and these have the advantage for being cheaper too. Virtually every inverter will be programmable to take remote stop start and e stop switches. the ones salvaged from your DOL starter MIGHT or might not be suitable.
Adding a new push button station is not expensive and guaranteed to work.
A big plus one for having the motor re-connected inside for 240 delta operation.

If you are starting out on a collection of three phase machine where you don't need variable speed, you could consider a rotary converter, which would be plug and play for one machine at a time. You would still need a spindle inverter for your cnc plans.
Bob
 

WaldoBarnstormer

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I told you my thoughts were dangerous..

Yes, I've done a bit of looking in to the above now and once I actually sat down and properly thought about it I realised it wasn't feasible.. I was initially just stood there and thought I had had a moment of inspiration but best laid plans, and all that kind of stuff...
 

WaldoBarnstormer

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Ttrees":4z27s5ue said:
Still hoping someone clears up why you just couldn't buy a 230 in 380v out instead of
digging out windings.

As far as I am aware the smaller £80ish inverters output 3 phase but at 240v whereas the expensive step up inverters output 3 phase at the 400v range? As my motor isn't voltage ranged I'd need the expensive option to run it at full speed (voltage). I'm more than happy to be corrected on this.
 

guineafowl21

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WaldoBarnstormer":21jzhxmb said:
Ttrees":21jzhxmb said:
Still hoping someone clears up why you just couldn't buy a 230 in 380v out instead of
digging out windings.

As far as I am aware the smaller £80ish inverters output 3 phase but at 240v whereas the expensive step up inverters output 3 phase at the 400v range? As my motor isn't voltage ranged I'd need the expensive option to run it at full speed (voltage). I'm more than happy to be corrected on this.
As I said above, the step-up inverters are expensive. Spend an hour (or two) digging out the star point and you can use a much cheaper unit, and your motor will remain usable on 3ph 400V too.
Example:
Drives direct 2hp step-up inverter/VFD - about £600
My standard inverter (2hp) - about £60.

Admittedly, mine is a cheapo unit, only running a 3/4hp motor, but you see the point, I hope. A star point extraction would be a couple of hours well spent.

Edit: yes, the OP’s motor is permanent star, looking at that pic of the connector box. There doesn’t seem much room in there for three extra connections. If you’re thinking of the delta conversion route, you might find it better to attach a standard Wiska box there, and use Wago connectors.
 

Ttrees

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So what's your opinion about this drive?
Is this not a step up inverter for roughly the same price as a Huanyang though?
Screenshot from 2020-07-17 10-47-55 (copy).png


Not that I'm opposed in any way to learning and cleaning possible dust inside motor whilst at it,
but for really old motors, It would be good to know if these El cheapo's will do the job. :)

Bearing in mind for Waldo, that some of these folks selling VFD's on the bay are scoundrels
selling different products than what's pictured! :roll:
I suggested a member buy an Isacon/Askpower unit the same as mine, for his dual voltage saw.
(particular model I have, shares an identical model number as the Huanyang Hy02D223B)
but when he received the package the drive was little bigger than a smartphone!

Surely the capacitors and all the rest wouldn't be as reliable or whatever as a normal sized unit.
Guessing a step up VFD would be more taxing on components due to the price of the fancy ones?

Thanks
Tom
 

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guineafowl21

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The phenomenon of far east manufacturing... I have no idea if that one’s any good, but looking at the price of mine, just less the half that of a decent unit, versus the price of that one, which is about 1/6th that of a decent unit, I’d be suspicious. Someone will have to take the plunge and let us know!

The picture looks exactly the same as my standard, optimistically rated 2hp VFD. Where they have fitted the extra stuff to step-up and power up to 3hp is beyond me.
 

WaldoBarnstormer

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So the saw lost a bit of weight today... Firstly I removed a dyson full of sawdust from the bottom this morning and then set about removing the switch gear and motor..

20200717_145928.jpg


Came off without any real issue and my 2 belts looked in pretty good nick!

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Removal of the old DOL left a nice big hold in the stand tho so I might have to have a fiddle with a patch of some sort..

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The (I'm assuming) aftermarket/homemade dust collection came out as well. It actually looks like it should work pretty well despite the previous owner having simply duct taped it in to place!

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Spent the next while filling another dyson full of more saw dust from numerous crevices and corners...

I hadn't been able to get the tilt action working last night but there was a little movement today so I fettled for a bit and it ended up running beautifully! I think it was mostly just jammed with a bit of surface rust and damp sawdust.

20200717_160631.jpg

20200717_160544.jpg


The raise and lower was now causing trouble and it would only move about an inch despite cleaning, clearing, loosening and oiling everything I could find.. Eventually tracked it down to the riving knife trapping nut. Once I backed that off the blade ran up and down really smooth.. I'm a little concerned that it stops just barely (about 2mm) below the surface of the table. Is that normal? I feel like it should drop down a bit more? It seems to definitely be at its lowest point as if you try to turn the handle anymore you can actually see the rise/fall shaft pushing its housing and exposing the thrust bearing a little on the inside.

20200717_152420.jpg


Now my next problem is the blade! There is a couple of issues here.. Firstly I have no locking tool to stop the spindle spinning and it looks like the locking holes have had a bit of abuse previously and aren't in great condition. Secondly, the securing nut is almost certainly going to be well rusted on, and thirdly the previous numpties have the blade on back to front so it's impossible to get the blade to bite into some wood while I attack the securing nut with a big spanner!

Does anyone have any advice on this on other than just soak with more oil and keep trying? I am making assumptions here that the spindle is immobilised by inserting a rod or some long lost tool into what I can only describe as a bored hole on a flange on the spindle and then simply spannering off the front nut? Again I'm assuming these are left hand thread so to remove the nut the spanner should rotate towards the front of the machine?


Spotted my first potential issues today as well. The pre-tapped holes for holding the fence rails may have a crack running under at least 2 of them! I'm not 100% certain yet due to the amount of gunk still on everything but when I go to refit or use the rail I'll be going carefully.. I did notice that something was a little off last night as some of the rail mounting bolts seemed to be bent when I was screwing them back in after removing the rails. I only put them back in as I try to keep the bolt in the hole to stop me loosing them/wondering what goes where!

Might take the tops off this evening and see if I can finally reclaim some floor space.
 

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WaldoBarnstormer

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Ok, so a little more progress tonight and a moment of genius(?) at the end!

Started cleaning up the table top and it is going to take AGES if it comes back at all. I know I'll never get it looking like new but I was hoping to at least get it smooth again. I think the corrosion is pretty established and pitting is definitely inevitable but I'm not sure I'll be able to remove all the rough surface stuff too.. I took to hitting it with a brass wheel tonight which helped clear out the rust but didn't do much to flatten it... I'll start with some 80grit tomorrow and see how it goes.

Has anyone ever looked into having a top milled again, or am I just getting way too fussy???

I did take off one side tonight tho and the gap between the slabs came up nicely.

20200717_211445.jpg


I thought I'd have another attempt at the blade before calling it a night.. Still wouldn't budge...

Plan 1 - What if I increased the effective depth of the locking hole by drilling a hole in a bit of wood and placing over it... Didn't work but looking back now it had a lot to do with not clamping the wood down and only trying to hold it in place by hand..

Plan 2 - Allen key in the hole and use the table/wood as a brake to get LOTS of leverage on the nut!

20200717_215324.jpg


Still wouldn't budge but I knew this was a good plan so the simple solution was more torque!

Plan 3 - Bigger spanner!

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Hammers and Stilsons.. Precision tools made for any job!
 

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WaldoBarnstormer

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Took the table extensions off and the left hand bolts are looking a bit worse for wear... Might need to source some replacements or retap the holes for some new ones... (they look worse in person then the pic)

20200718_105850.jpg


The table has had a couple of oil baths to try and soften up the rust so now it's time to scrape and sand! Hitting it with this razor scraper first, re-oiling and then some 80 grit.. Fingers crossed!

20200718_105756.jpg


Couple of hours later and both wings are done along with the main top... It's never going to be pretty but I'm fairly happy with the smoothness now. I'm surprised the 80 grit left it as smooth as this. There is still a couple of spots I'll likely try to hit again but for now it is more than useable.

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Trevanion

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That top has come up alright! Sometimes you gotta embrace the fact it's an old machine and it's going to have it's battle scars, I'm doing up a Multico K morticer at the moment and the table looked like this to begin with:

2nyh1h8.jpg


It took quite a bit of elbow grease and 80 grit sandpaper to get it to this point:

5Vl9efg.jpg


It is also not without it's battle scars, some numpty decided to mortice straight into the bed in multiple places with various sized augers at some point in time...

EbqkekC.jpg


Those look a bit like they're BSW hex bolts which can be rather expensive to source, don't be surprised to be paying well over £1 a bolt for proper BSW ones.
 

WaldoBarnstormer

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Trevanion":2j8ekswy said:
Those look a bit like they're BSW hex bolts which can be rather expensive to source, don't be surprised to be paying well over £1 a bolt for proper BSW ones.

According to the parts manual they are 3/8" whitworth x 1 1/4 inches...

ebay have them, but as you say, just over £1 eac

bolt.jpg



At least the allen bolts for the fence rail are a bit more reasonable

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Myfordman

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I'd be questioning why the bolts are damaged. Fitting tables is a once or twice in a machine lifetime type operation.
They could have been over tightened by a gorilla and stretched the bolt locally at the joint or could have started to pull out of the CI threads.
Careful examination before shelling out on expensive BSW replacements might lead you to the best course of action being re-tapping to M12 if there is enough meat and use of more common, cheaper bolts or ones you might even have?

Bob
 

WaldoBarnstormer

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I'm looking to see if I have a bsw tap to clear out the holes, but re tapping is an option.

Considering the previous owners seem to have been running the saw back to front, it's anyone guess what happened to these lol
 
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