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WaldoBarnstormer

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Hi all..

This is my first post here after discovering the forum yesterday and spending several hours reading a lot of the threads. I forgot how addictive places like this can be... Kinda like a word version of a YouTube wormhole.. Anyways, I'll hopefully be able to soak up some knowledge and post a few pics along the way of my recent purchase...

In keeping with all good woodworking traditions I bought something that is too big for my garage, I have no real need for and I don't even know for sure if it works! As of this morning I am the owner of (yet another) Wadkin 10" AGS is need of (major) restoration

The history behind it so far is I bought it from a facebook marketplace ad for an industrial unit clearance. I actually went to buy a Bandsaw but whilst there he was offering me a Stanley dust collector and the Wadkin saw for ridiculously little money. As far as I know, both items were in regular use up till the unit clearance and I said I'd love it but as the saw was 3phase I just can't run it/have the space for them. He was desperate to clear the unit and we ended up shaking hands on a deal that night. I was able to (just) fit the bandsaw into the back of my car and we arranged that he would deliver the saw & extractor in the next couple of weeks after he worked out how he was going to get in into a van/trailer.

Anyway, a couple of weeks turned into a couple of months and then I ended up working overseas for 5 months so this poor saw has been sat outside under a tarp for best part of a year now! As you can see from the pics below it's a little worse for wear.

I managed to finally get it delivered to my garage this morning , and by garage I mean a normal car garage, I REALLY don't have space for this! I figure these things are pretty much bulletproof tho and a quick tickle with some WD40 and she'll be running again within the hour!

Now... This is what has brought me here.. I'm in two minds about how to approach this.. Ideally I want to do a total strip and rebuild if possible. As you can see, some parts are beyond repair and will need replacing (insert plate is the most obvious), the riving knife and crown guard are missing, I have no way of powering the motor to even check if it works and for some reason the blade and fence have been fitted to it back to front???? I really don't know what has been going on there!

I'm wondering about the following:

Should I look at swapping the motor out for a single phase 1.5kw version which should cure my electrical supply issues but then cause motor mounting & alignment / shaft diameter / pully dimension trouble? I've gone backwards and forwards so many times over the past couple of weeks around new motor / VFD and I still don't know which way to go. Up until I bought this a few months back I didn't even know VFDs existed which is why I thought it was stupid agreeing to purchase it at all! I'm pretty sure the guy who sold it didn't know either hence the price! lol

If I swap out the motor and end up with a different diameter shaft, has anyone had much success in finding / manufacturing a new pulley for it?

If I go for a VFD I'd also want a NVR switch, so there is the hassle of getting that into the system. And of course I am assuming that the 3phase motor is actually still a runner!

The 3 belt pully - Am I correct in thinking there should be 3 belts fitted??? I seem to only have 2??!

I'd like to look at refreshing the bearings as they are so cheap to replace, however how much of a pain is stripping them off / pressing them back on the arbour in real life? Has anyone got much experience of this?

The riving knife and crown guard seem to be available online, but at £300ish I don't really want to be dropping that kind of money on them. I hear there is an improved design for the crown now which includes dust collection so I might look into that, ideally I'd like to do a drawing and get it made somewhere. As far as I see there is also 2 different riving knives available - I believe mine is a 1965 model so if anyone has knowledge on which I need to be looking for, I'd be most grateful.



Anyway, she got a WD40/penetrating oil bath a few hours ago and I'm going to see if a few of those knobs and handles will budge yet!

Oh yea, and just to top the day off, about 5 mins after it had been dropped in the garage the Mrs discovered the backup fridge/freezer had packed in.. Opened the freezer door and it was literally about 20degrees inside it, but had been fine the night before (it's always been a little dodgy, the antifrost never worked) so I've spent the last 3 hours googling new ones of them! I can get a new one delivered on Tuesday, problem is I have a 250kg saw blocking the garage door now!!!
 

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MikeG.

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Drop a PM to Wallace, and you'll get the advice of the most experienced machine restorer on the forum.
 

Myfordman

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One quick point from your post, There is no need to have an NVR when using an inverter. The inverter provides this function. Furthermore, there should be no switchgear between the motor and the inverter as such a switch can kill the inverter.
 

Trevanion

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I would guess since it's three-phase power some numpty has had the phases the wrong way around on the switch/motor so the motor spins reverse to normal and just mounted the blade backward but also for some reason mounted the fence backward too which is doubly odd :?

I don't know a terrible amount about VFDS and someone with more authority and knowledge will come along and say whether that motor will run off one or not, since it only states 380/440V and not 220/240V as well dual voltage I would suspect it may not without some wangling of the motor windings.

A single-phase motor swap is a fairly straightforward option but it isn't particularly cheap, but it will add decent value to the machine. You'd also need new single-phase switchgear with and overload rated for the motor amperage. I'd personally put a 2.2kw motor in over a 1.5kw since there won't be much price-difference but the extra power would be much appreciated especially if you start using groovers and cutter blocks in the machine. You can probably be able to get a taper lock pulley with a metric bore and a very close external match to the old pulley, or alternatively you could have the motor shaft larger than the bore of the old pulley and have it re-bored, there are a few people on the forum including myself who'd be more than happy to help out with that.

Looks a tidy machine, shouldn't take too much to get it running pretty sweetly if you want to use it right away but it's always nice to do a complete renovation. There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with that table insert though unless I'm missing something.
 

WaldoBarnstormer

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Myfordman":q4w16puh said:
One quick point from your post, There is no need to have an NVR when using an inverter. The inverter provides this function. Furthermore, there should be no switchgear between the motor and the inverter as such a switch can kill the inverter.
Ahhhh, thanks for that info... I was wanting an NVR more for the large and accessible on / off buttons.. I don't like the idea of trying to switch it on and off using the little buttons on the inverter.

I've seen a few YouTube vids of people wiring switches onto inverters but I think this is different to what you mean as the switch doesn't fall between the motor and inverter, I think they are just programmed in to function the inverter???

It's all new to me.
 

WaldoBarnstormer

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Trevanion":23cznsye said:
I would guess since it's three-phase power some numpty has had the phases the wrong way around on the switch/motor so the motor spins reverse to normal and just mounted the blade backward but also for some reason mounted the fence backward too which is doubly odd :?
Yes, that makes sense.. I could understand them switching the blade and fence around if they didn't know why it was spinning the other way around, but the fence rails also have to be swapped as the front rail seems to have a flat edge on it whilst the rear is cylindrical.. Just seems like a weird thing for someone to have done!


Trevanion":23cznsye said:
I don't know a terrible amount about VFDS and someone with more authority and knowledge will come along and say whether that motor will run off one or not, since it only states 380/440V and not 220/240V as well dual voltage I would suspect it may not without some wangling of the motor windings.
This was exactly my thoughts too.. I've seen some things saying you can get inverters that will run 3 phase motors but still only output 240v (I think??).. This works if your motor is 220/440v ranged but if the motor can't (or shouldn't?) run on 220v then it will probably make your world implode.


Trevanion":23cznsye said:
A single-phase motor swap is a fairly straightforward option but it isn't particularly cheap, but it will add decent value to the machine. You'd also need new single-phase switchgear with and overload rated for the motor amperage. I'd personally put a 2.2kw motor in over a 1.5kw since there won't be much price-difference but the extra power would be much appreciated especially if you start using groovers and cutter blocks in the machine.
To swap out the motor is a little more expensive but not prohibitively so (I think). An inverter would cost around under £90, if it would even be an option at all.. I can get a 2hp 2 pole motor for £100ish (https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/2hp-sin ... e-motor-3/) and a new DOL or NVR switch for circa £30... I would like to go bigger as you suggest but that would then require a 16 or 20 amp line which a) gets expensive as my CU is already full, b) I don't think my use would require it. I'm wary of the above option being under powered in the motor dept if I do swap out for 1.5kw tho.


Trevanion":23cznsye said:
You can probably be able to get a taper lock pulley with a metric bore and a very close external match to the old pulley, or alternatively you could have the motor shaft larger than the bore of the old pulley and have it re-bored, there are a few people on the forum including myself who'd be more than happy to help out with that.
That's excellent to know! The new motor comes with 19mm shaft so I was having nightmare visions of not getting a pulley to fit. Until I get the motor and pulley off I can't get an accurate measurement on wither the current shaft diameter or pulley bore (unless someone here already has that info?)


Trevanion":23cznsye said:
Looks a tidy machine, shouldn't take too much to get it running pretty sweetly if you want to use it right away but it's always nice to do a complete renovation. There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with that table insert though unless I'm missing something.
Thanks.. I think I got a great deal and if I can get it up and running I'll be keeping it for when I can eventually set it up properly. The insert has a couple of cracks in it and doesn't lay flat. Also looks like someone has had a go at repairing it before? It's maybe not as bad as I thought it was at first look but I'd probably have a go at making a few zero clearance ones myself, or see how many £££ a new one would be.

20200716_205344.jpg

20200716_205350.jpg
 

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Trevanion

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WaldoBarnstormer

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Started to tackle the issues for an hour tonight..

Got the fence removed after a little light persuasion from my fine adjustment device (hammer) and the rear rail (which was attached to the front!?) came off surprisingly easy. The front rail (attached to the rear) was coming off lovely as well but one of the securing bolts refuses to budge, so that's getting an overnight oil bath.

These rails are pretty rough with corrosion. Does anyone have any handy hints for bringing them back? Ideally I'd get them in a lathe but I don't have one... Maybe that should be something I keep an eye out for??? I need a lathe to fix the saw... I need a press to fix the lathe.. Kinda like the fly, spider, horse!
20200716_205123.jpg


One side of the table got a quick rub down as well.. How aggressive should I be here? It's never going to be pristine again without taking it somewhere for skimming, but I'd like to get it as decent as possible... I was thinking starting at 120 grit and working it up to scotchpad/800grit.. You can see below where I hit it for a quick 10 mins earlier and it's definitely better, but still pitted.... I'm considering a wire wheel in the drill/grinder but keen to not cause damage.
20200716_205055.jpg
 

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WaldoBarnstormer

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Trevanion":2m5k3bqs said:
WaldoBarnstormer":2m5k3bqs said:
It's maybe not as bad as I thought it was at first look but I'd probably have a go at making a few zero clearance ones myself, or see how many £££ a new one would be.
£200 for an insert. No seriously, £200, from AMS (New Wadkin)

https://www.advancedmachinery.co.uk/machinery/parts.asp?section=wadkin-10-inch-ags-sawbench-230

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: That's considerably more than what I paid for the saw!
Just had a quick look and that's where I saw the £200ish for RK and CG... Didn't notice the insert was that kind of price!
 

WaldoBarnstormer

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The blade also now rises and falls.. Sort of... Tilting is still a no no though.

Took a bit of time to free the rise/lower locking handle and started with a few mm of lift/fall increasing a bit each attempt..
It doesn't want to fall all the way down yet though which I'm hoping I can sort easier once I get the top off and have better access.

If I'm reading how this works right the lift/lower wheel is locked in position via the black handle in the middle of it... Mine tightens/loosens now but doesn't seem to have any effect on being able to rotate the actual handle. I'll have a better look tomorrow but I hope something isn't stripped.
 

Trevanion

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WaldoBarnstormer":2s00cn1z said:
These rails are pretty rough with corrosion. Does anyone have any handy hints for bringing them back? Ideally I'd get them in a lathe but I don't have one... Maybe that should be something I keep an eye out for??? I need a lathe to fix the saw... I need a press to fix the lathe.. Kinda like the fly, spider, horse!
Lathe would be ideal but without it, I probably would just scrape off the worst of it with a woodwork chisel (sacrilege I know! I keep a couple that are ground to 45 degrees for this kind of thing) and then give it a good rub with 120g until it feels quite smooth then go up to 320g and maybe even 500g to make it slippery smooth, then wax it.

WaldoBarnstormer":2s00cn1z said:
One side of the table got a quick rub down as well.. How aggressive should I be here? It's never going to be pristine again without taking it somewhere for skimming, but I'd like to get it as decent as possible... I was thinking starting at 120 grit and working it up to scotchpad/800grit.. You can see below where I hit it for a quick 10 mins earlier and it's definitely better, but still pitted.... I'm considering a wire wheel in the drill/grinder but keen to not cause damage.
I'd probably go over it all with the chisel as mentioned before to get rid of the worst of it then perhaps start at 80g with a block of wood as a sanding block to keep it flat and work back and forth and work up through the grits until it is smooth, you'll probably never get it pretty again without serious equipment but you'll definitely get it smooth without too much work. I've never been overly keen on using power tools on machined surfaces but you could probably use an angle grinder with something like a wire cup wheel and GENTLY work the surface being careful not to gouge the cast iron, alternatively, polycarbide wheels are very good at removing rust and grime whilst being very forgiving on the base metal.
 

Fitzroy

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You can make a xero clearance insert from a bit of ply so no need to buy one. You’ll need to be a bit more creative with the insert once you locate/make a riving knife/guard.

Regards the VFD route I did this on a Wadkin planer. The motor was also a single voltage on the motor plate so I had to open the motor up, find the star point and solder on some new tails do I could rewire the motor from star to delta. It’s doable if your Somewhat comfortable with electrics. I prefer the VFD route as it’s a very soft start so keeps inrush currents low and you can happily run sizeable motors from a standard 13A socket.

Remove the majority of the rust on the tables with a Stanley knife blade in one of those glass scrapers, it’s much easier and quicker than trying to sand all the rust away.

Great saws and fun to work on. Bearing replacement is easy and pretty cheap. If you have it in bits you’d be daft not to change them.

Fitz.
 

Ttrees

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Here is Bob Minchin's (AKA Myfordman above) excellent write up on induction motors and VFD's
will clear things up a bit.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_GZrX ... sp=sharing
If the link won't work, find this under 9fingers signature on the wood haven 2 (he's a moderator there) and perhaps too modest to post his PDF here.

It seems like the links no longer exist regarding digging out the windings for a fixed star wound 380v only motor.
There were two of them which was some interesting reading. :(

I know very little beyond hooking VFD/inverters up/understanding those important basic motor commands "parameters" on simpler to hook up dual voltage 3 phase motors.
Reading that PDF and many of the posts here will clear things up for you.

Plenty of folks with Startrite 275's (a more frequently found machine) happily using them, myself included, and there are many threads on this for different takes on installation and the likes.
(You won't find any conflicting advice or anything, just various options for practicalities sake)

Looking just now, it seems that there are plenty of 230v in 380v out 2.2KW drives on that the bay for less than a hundred quid.
It seemed they were something like 50% more expensive some time ago.

What's the problem with running these 380v out VFD/inerters for fixed star wound motors,
compared to similarly priced Huanyang or Isacon/Askpower 240v out drives for dual voltage motors
configured to Delta voltage?

Appreciated if someone could clear this up for a layman like myself.
Thanks folks

Tom
 

ManowarDave

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Hi Waldo,

Welcome to your new labour of love!

I did a 10AGS restoration last year and thoroughly enjoyed it. Here's my thread in case there is anything useful in there for you.

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/my-new-old-wadkin-10-ags-t118529.html

I did some CAD drawings of the older style splitter and newer riving knife and had them made at a local laser cutter's for about £15 a piece. Links on page 2 and 3 respectively.

I ended up buying a cheap chinese inverter on fleabay for about £90. Was easy to set up and no problems so far.

Just shout if there is anything I can help with.

Dave
 

WaldoBarnstormer

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Many thanks for the link to the pdf.. it is looking like a great read, just scanned through up to the DOL/NVR page and I've have several questions answered already!
 

Myfordman

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Glad you are finding it useful. I wrote it a good few years back now and quite a few folk seem to find it helpful.
Re size of control buttons, you can wire in your choice of buttons and program the inverter to be controlled externally instead of the fiddly internal buttons. I normally suggest mounting the inverter on the wall at eye level away from the line of fire of sawdust and put the buttons in a control station on the saw where you can reach them. It is also easy to at an emergency stop kick switch it you want to as well.
Bob
 

WaldoBarnstormer

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Dave, your restoration was one of the threads I looked at a couple days ago.. I read it start to finish and congrats on what looks like an excellent job!

Can I ask a couple questions about your inverter? Sorry if these seem basic or obvious, but I'm the kind of leaner who prefers to visually see items working as I can usually reinvent things in my head easier that way. Just having theoretical knowledge causes my brain to think I've forgotten or not considered something lol..

The inverters seen easy enough to wire in but my main concern is the starting and stopping off the saw using one.. Do you have to start/stop your saw using the little buttons on the inverter itself or have you got another switch for that??

I'm really just thinking I want an easily accessible emergency off button should it be required but also I don't want to setup a workpiece ready for cutting and then have to start the blade via the inverter as that will probably be mounted somewhere less convenient than a traditional DOL type switch.

Hope that made sense???
 

WaldoBarnstormer

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Myfordman":uqmzh4vw said:
Glad you are finding it useful. I wrote it a good few years back now and quite a few folk seem to find it helpful.
Re size of control buttons, you can wire in your choice of buttons and program the inverter to be controlled externally instead of the fiddly internal buttons. I normally suggest mounting the inverter on the wall at eye level away from the line of fire of sawdust and put the buttons in a control station on the saw where you can reach them. It is also easy to at an emergency stop kick switch it you want to as well.
Bob
This was one of my main issues around using the inverter option as I didn't want to be tied to using it's tiny interface.

Am I correct in thinking then that if I go for inverter I should be wiring 240v power supply to inverter (green arrow), inverter to motor (red arrow), switch gear such as a normal start/stop/kick stop buttons (can NVR be used?) to the inverter (yellow ellipse) and then programming the inverter using their specific manual to allow the switch gear to operate it?

The saw has an existing kick stop button on it and I'd be keen to retain that feature as it's just so handy and IMO much safer. Even if I switch out to a new 220v motor and DOL/NVR I'd be looking to re-add this feature.

Capture.JPG



Given as my motor only shows a rating for 380/420v is their anything else I need to be considering?

20200716_124300.jpg



Thanks again.. This is VERY helpful.
 

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