Are these hand made ?

[jimi43]

I wish I could afford one...bootfair maybe...

You, you jammy sod!! You'll find a Holtey in a bootfair or on in the back corner of an e-pay auction, probably within the year.... :lol:

Cheers, Vann

You do realise this is throwing down the gauntlet don'tcha! :wink:

On the subject of "handmade" I think we have to be very careful when we try to define that term. Each step towards robotic mass production takes a product away from true "handmade" and, to be honest, at what point in the opposite direction do we define really handmade work

Since the first flint axe, developments have been made which take the user along a path of increasing aids to full CNC.

Exponents of each step will fight hammer and tongs (pun intended) that their work is "handmade" and anything more sophisticated constitutes mechanised.

A woody expert would say metal planes are a step too far for instance!

Do craftsmen who uses hand tools really have the the right to say the product is handmade if they buy processed stock from a timberyard that uses giant machines to make that stock?

Surely - to be truly handmade...the tools must be hewn from the forest, metal ore forged into edges, stock harvested from a coppice....

I have often said to "her indoors" when oggling Karl's work..."if I only had a milling machine" or "if I had a proper pillar drill or bandsaw..." BUT this doesn't detract from the sheer beauty and skill in making the final product.

Machine tools do need to be controlled and in the hands of a master create gems like this...in the hands of a numb-nuts..they create queues at A&E!

Jim

 

[GazPal]

Vickers Armstrong heavily relied on lathe and machine work when producing tanks (Pre CNC and computers) and nobody ever thought of their tanks or cannon as being handmade.

Tool and materials manipulation by hand is quite different to tool and materials manipulation by machine supervised by personnel.

 

[woodbloke]

Surely - to be truly handmade...the tools must be hewn from the forest, metal ore forged into edges, stock harvested from a coppice....

Jim

...which is a point I made in this thread much earlier. There is very, very little that can be said is 'hand made' (though Pye does quote or or two examples if memory serves) It's a better descripition to say that tools (hand or machine) are 'hand guided'
If I remember tonite I'll have a delve into his little book to see what he has to say about a true 'hand made' product - Rob

 

[Scouse]

Tool and materials manipulation by hand is quite different to tool and materials manipulation by machine supervised by personnel.

Well said!

jimi; Chopping down trees with the edge of your hand is not the logical conclusion to be drawn, at the end of the argument.

To use an example, I can cut a mortice and tenon joint by hand. I could also use a router and Leigh FMT jig. Clearly both require some level of human input, it is the level of skill which is important.

A recent thread detailed one members attempt to resaw a piece of wood by hand using a panel saw. While a level of competence is required to push a similar piece of wood through a bandsaw, the use of a panel saw, and the associated difficulty encountered, highlights the increased level of skill required for hand work and makes a mockery of those who would argue that a bandsaw falls under the remit of hand work: otherwise resawing a 6 foot long panel would be easy and the need for a bandsaw would be negated.

Sorry for the rant, but it makes me angry when I see people claiming to produce handmade work using a spindle moulder and planer thicknesser.

I need a deep breath and a sit down...

 

[woodbloke]

...I can cut a mortice and tenon joint by hand. I could also use a router and Leigh FMT jig. Clearly both require some level of human input, it is the level of skill which is important.

A recent thread detailed one members attempt to resaw a piece of wood by hand using a panel saw. While a level of competence is required to push a similar piece of wood through a bandsaw, the use of a panel saw, and the associated difficulty encountered, highlights the increased level of skill required for hand work and makes a mockery of those who would argue that a bandsaw falls under the remit of hand work: otherwise resawing a 6 foot long panel would be easy and the need for a bandsaw would be negated.

You're now dipping into a different, but related area. 'The Workmanship of Risk' vs the 'Workmanship of Certainty' The WofR is concerned more with the use of hand tools, where the inherent risk of failure is greater the less skill one possesses, but with the required skill, the outcomes may be better...it depends as you say, on the level of skill...look at David Savage's spidery chairs as an example.

However the WofC seeks to improve the risk of failure by ensuring a more certain outcome, that is by using a machine with true and straight surfaces (in most cases) to do the work...all the user then has to do is to guide the material through or past the machine to achieve a good result.

For a simple example, take planing a piece of rough sawn wood. Most of us could plane it flat to a lesser or greater extent (depending on skill) but a relatively unskilled worker could take the same piece of wood and pass it across a surface planer to achieve (with a minimum amount of skill) an acceptable, flat surface. In other words a more certain outcome with less skill. When you combine a very high level of operator skill and the WofC you end up with Karl Holtey's planes...that's why they look like they do :wink:

Did I not say this was a difficult area to discuss? :lol: - Rob

 

[bugbear]

There's simply a spectrum, with the extremes being pretty obvious (bloke with an axe at one end, unstaffed robot/CNC factory at the other).

The main factor is the amount of operator input (skill, if you like) during the process. But it's not a yes/no kind of deal; it's a more/less thing.

I suppose people prefer black/white arguments to the shades of gray the real world tends to be made of.

BugBear

 

[AndyT]

Quite.

I'm tempted to start a thread on whether a tomato is a fruit or a vegetable, but I won't, as it would be similarly pointless. It would be a discussion about how we use words ("fruit" "vegetable" "handmade" "machine-made" ) which are not a terribly good fit for the objects we want to discuss.

Nice planes though! :lol:

 

[Kalimna]

Andy - whilst I can see the point you're getting at, a tomato is most definitely a fruit. A 'fruit' has a distinct technical meaning, something to do with the part of the plant following a flower that contains seeds...



"Knowledge tells you it's a fruit, wisdom tells you not to put it in the fruit bowl"

Anyhoo, Im off to finish sanding my Hal Taylor chair

Adam

 

[Scouse]

Did I not say this was a difficult area to discuss? :lol: - Rob

You did!

Although, I do believe that it is a black and white subject...

I'll go and sit in the naughty corner! :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[woodbloke]

Although, I do believe that it is a black and white subject...

I'll go and sit in the naughty corner! :lol: :lol: :lol:

...with lots of shades of grey in between :wink: - Rob

 

[GazPal]

Machine operator skill sets are quite different to those involved when manufacturing something by hand and using hand tools to manipulate materials from a comparitively raw state to a finished state or article. One work task is no more difficult than the other at the level of skill we're speaking of, BUT hand preparation, hand tooling and hand assembling materials is far more physically demanding. It may have more to do with making things by hand (Hand made) than machining them to high tolerances on machines, before fine tuning and assembly by hand. Two distinctly different crafts with distinctly difference working process.

I'd wholeheartedly agree in terms of planes being hand made IF the same degree of hand tool manipulation were employed, but it isn't the case. Otherwise all parts would be hand processed and tooled by hand prior to hand assembly.

High spec parts manufacture via machine processing before fine tuning and assembly by hand typically defines - no offence intended - highly skilled machinist and assembly worker. Otherwise each car produced at Nissan, Sunderland is hand made, in spite of the use of robots, CNC and assembly workers.

 

[jimi43]

Is the point not of definition of "handmade or hand made" but of snobbery associated with exponents of one or the other and their rather stuck up way of referring to other masters in either direction?

There is nothing particularly elitist in either camp....learning hand skills is certainly challenging but working a lathe properly is equally so...I know...I am rubbish at the latter and not much better at the former.

We are seeing some of this snobbery oozing out in this thread...although sometimes heavily disguised as evangelism!

Jim

 

[GazPal]

Hi Jim,

I agree 100% with what you've said and wholely appreciate the skills possessed by so many machine workers. Quite a number of my own relatives - primarily uncles and cousins - are/were high end machinist for various heavy and light engineering companies within this region. It is most definitely highly skilled work and often working to far finer tolerances. Nobody can ever truthfully say otherwise. One salient point is the fact they'd never profess to any of the pieces they've produced as being hand made.

From a hand building luthiery perspective, I'd be more than a little miffed if someone bought a partially prepared guitar kit from LMII with a CNC'd neck, pre-cut neck and tail block and pre-radiussed & slotted fingerboard, assembled and finished it before moving on to advertise and retail it as hand made.

Such an approach sidelines the real time skills used by those who do actually hand craft and tool all parts from raw stock. I think this may be where some confusion can arise between camps where some makers craft from raw stock and by hand, whilst others craft from raw stock with a heavy bias toward machine tooling and finishing. As a hand builder I take a great deal of pride in my work and the same stands for those who craft fine good via the manipulation of materials using machinery.

In all honesty, if I were a high-end machinist producing the same level of goods I'd very proudly and clearly advertise and retail as such and without fear of treading on the toes of those who build solely by hand using hand tools. Both camps exist, but should try not to mislead potential customers.

 

[jimi43]

You have hit the nail on the head Gary.

I am afraid I get a little tired of certain subjects where an elitist atmosphere prevails...like guitars...and the playing of them.

You only have to watch Seasick Steve to realise that you can make tremendous music on a cigar box, a broomstick and twine...and having a Martin does not a musician make!

In my early life I was lucky enough to be able to afford a brace of Nikons...but took great photos with a Zenith B before that! It just made it easier to get better results more often when I upgraded.

As far as calling work "handmade" or not...well I think true experts can tell the difference and they buy accordingly. People who make masterpieces by hand alone do not boast about it...it shows in their pride and effort.

Jim

 

[katellwood]

Having browsed this thread has anyone considered the work of a woodturner at a lathe, would we consider his work to be machine made as it needs to be plugged in and switched on and only consider it to be hand made if produced on e.g. a pole or treddle lathe

My considered opinion is that even though a machine is required I believe this sort of work to be hand produced utilising the skill of the craftsman.

In addition, earlier in the thread it was identified that the only plane maker known to make planes completely by hand is Bill Carter and having seen some of his work at Cressing Temple this year I can only say that I considered his work to be exceptional. That being said there was another plane maker at Cressing last year, Konrad Sauer whose planes were also exceptional and being a regular visitor to his blog get the impression that his work appears to be created by hand (correct me if i'm wrong).

Finally having met Karl Holtey many years ago and tried one of his infill planes I consider him to be an exceptional exponent of plane making however produced and look forward to any updates to his blog. In essence the man is an inspiration who I admire and respect greatly.

 

[GazPal]

You have hit the nail on the head Gary.

I am afraid I get a little tired of certain subjects where an elitist atmosphere prevails...like guitars...and the playing of them.

You only have to watch Seasick Steve to realise that you can make tremendous music on a cigar box, a broomstick and twine...and having a Martin does not a musician make!

In my early life I was lucky enough to be able to afford a brace of Nikons...but took great photos with a Zenith B before that! It just made it easier to get better results more often when I upgraded.

As far as calling work "handmade" or not...well I think true experts can tell the difference and they buy accordingly. People who make masterpieces by hand alone do not boast about it...it shows in their pride and effort.

Jim

I used to have an Kodak hand me down, but never managed to achieve the results that tend to encourage enthusiasm and know exactly what you mean in terms of upgrading for the sake of increasing the frequency of better and sometimes great results.

Insofar as elitism travels, I tend toward prefering the quietly confident approach rather than one where someone is continually seen blowing his/her own trumpet. The quality of the end product generally says it all and needs no introduction.

The best legacy one can leave behind is one's work. It tends to say more about the craftsperson than words can ever do. Train an apprentice well and he and his work then becomes yet another aspect of your legacy.

 

[GazPal]

Having browsed this thread has anyone considered the work of a woodturner at a lathe, would we consider his work to be machine made as it needs to be plugged in and switched on and only consider it to be hand made if produced on e.g. a pole or treddle lathe

My considered opinion is that even though a machine is required I believe this sort of work to be hand produced utilising the skill of the craftsman.

Woodturning, regardless of pole, treadle or motor powered lathe, is primarily by hand if the driving force behind the cutting tool is hand operated/powered.

By definition "handmade" literally means "made by hand rather than machine". So sayeth the Oxford English Dictionary.

Fell a tree by axe and you've felled it by hand, but fell it using a tree felling machine and it was machine felled under the guidance of a machine operator.

 

[Vann]

I'm tempted to start a thread on whether a tomato is a fruit or a vegetable...

Not on the woodwork forum :!: Please start that thread in the Fruit and Veggie forum... :lol:

I'm a black and white person myself. I think Holtey planes are well made, skillfully made, and beautiful - just not hand made. I don't think that takes anything away from them.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[katellwood]

Having browsed this thread has anyone considered the work of a woodturner at a lathe, would we consider his work to be machine made as it needs to be plugged in and switched on and only consider it to be hand made if produced on e.g. a pole or treddle lathe

My considered opinion is that even though a machine is required I believe this sort of work to be hand produced utilising the skill of the craftsman.

Woodturning, regardless of pole, treadle or motor powered lathe, is primarily by hand if the driving force behind the cutting tool is hand operated/powered.

By definition "handmade" literally means "made by hand rather than machine". So sayeth the Oxford English Dictionary.

Fell a tree by axe and you've felled it by hand, but fell it using a tree felling machine and it was machine felled under the guidance of a machine operator.

My point exactly, however it could still be open to conjecture. Would we consider a carver who uses a chainsaw or arbortech to create a wooden sculpture to be creating by hand or machine. I would suggest they could achieve the same or simliar result both with machines and hand tools but both would require artistic skill by the operator

My point is where do we draw the line. I consider this issue to be extremely subjective with no definitive answer (which is why I suppose this thread was started as a Poll)

 

[GazPal]

Having browsed this thread has anyone considered the work of a woodturner at a lathe, would we consider his work to be machine made as it needs to be plugged in and switched on and only consider it to be hand made if produced on e.g. a pole or treddle lathe

My considered opinion is that even though a machine is required I believe this sort of work to be hand produced utilising the skill of the craftsman.

Woodturning, regardless of pole, treadle or motor powered lathe, is primarily by hand if the driving force behind the cutting tool is hand operated/powered.

By definition "handmade" literally means "made by hand rather than machine". So sayeth the Oxford English Dictionary.

Fell a tree by axe and you've felled it by hand, but fell it using a tree felling machine and it was machine felled under the guidance of a machine operator.

My point exactly, however it could still be open to conjecture. Would we consider a carver who uses a chainsaw or arbortech to create a wooden sculpture to be creating by hand or machine. I would suggest they could achieve the same or simliar result both with machines and hand tools but both would require artistic skill by the operator

My point is where do we draw the line. I consider this issue to be extremely subjective with no definitive answer (which is why I suppose this thread was started as a Poll)

A line is generally drawn at the point where manual input is superceded by mechanical input. Ergo the primary driving force behind the manipulation of the tool.

A steam engine is so-called because it is driven by pressurised steam, whilst a petrol engine is named as such because it's driven by the internal combustion of petrol. Both are named after their primary driving forces (The driver takes a back seat in this instance) and the same is typically the case regarding craft operations.

I could drill for oil in the North Sea using a drilling rig, but wouldn't be drilling the hole by hand........ The drilling rig would do that for me whilst I supervised it's operation.

Dig a trench by hand - using a pick-axe, trenching spade and shovel - and it's hand dug.

Dig a trench using a JCB and it's considered machine dug......regardless of it's driver/operator's presence.

Both arbortech and chainsaw are considered mechanical tools, with one specific to carving and the other to tree felling. Both are manipulated by hand, in spite of being either electrically driven or two stroke petrol driven, but both are also replacements for hand tools and the end results are considered machine cut.

Had Michaelangelo Buonnaroti carved a timber version of David using an arbortech, it would still have been considered machine cut and not hand carved, as the artist would have been the tool's operator and not the sculptor manipulating mallet/maul, pitching tool, point and scutch.

I think OED pretty well summed up the definition of the term "hand made" as quoted in my previous post. Artistry or no, if the primary driving force behind a given operation is manual, it is generally accepted as being hand made or manually produced, but if the primary driving force is via machine it's then normally accepted as being machine made or produced by machine.

It's a black and white either/or situation with minimal grey area betwixt the two (There's always going to be a marginal degree of overlap), unless one attempts to re-invent/over analyse/over phylosophise already standardised phrases and concepts.