Are these hand made ?

[Scouse]

We are seeing some of this snobbery oozing out in this thread...although sometimes heavily disguised as evangelism!Jim

You say that like its a bad thing...

As has been noted the driving force behind the cutting edge is a good place to start if a definition is required.

I do wonder if there is a faint odour of self-esteem issues from the machine camp, after all if you used a router or a thicknesser why not just say? 'Partially hand-made guitar anyone?' No? Why not?

Hand made sounds better, so people use it in their marketing, or at least tell their freinds down the pub; hand made to disguise a lack of skill and knowledge.

If this isn't true then why not say machine made? You control the machine, and I agree there is just as much skill in machine work, but it's not handmade, so why say it is? Have some pride and self respect.

Even if you carve the rest of an instrument out with your fingernails, if you power thickness the board in the first place, where's the hand? Most thicknessers have feed rollers, you don't even need the skill to push it through at the right speed.

It's not snobbery, and I resent the implication that it is. You all know what's hand made and what isn't, you may have your hand on the orbital sander, but you still know it's cheating.

 

[woodbloke]

I didn't have a chance to dip into Proffessor Pye's book last night (busy in the 'shop) but I recollect, (I think) that one of the things that can be said to be 'hand made' in the strictest sense are coil pots, made from long fingers of raw clay shaped to form a ceramic pot. If you then add any sort of decoration by using a pointed stick say, it then becomes 'partly hand-made' as the stick is tool which is then 'hand-guided' - Rob

 

[GazPal]

I didn't have a chance to dip into Proffessor Pye's book last night (busy in the 'shop) but I recollect, (I think) that one of the things that can be said to be 'hand made' in the strictest sense are coil pots, made from long fingers of raw clay shaped to form a ceramic pot. If you then add any sort of decoration by using a pointed stick say, it then becomes 'partly hand-made' as the stick is tool which is then 'hand-guided' - Rob

In the strictest sense, use of a pointed stick/scribe to decorate clayware is known to produce a tooled finish, whilst the pot on a whole is hand made/built or hand thrown if cast onto a potter's wheel and formed. Glazing can be by hand (Brushed), dipping or via spray coating prior to and during the firing process.

 

[Alf]

You all know what's hand made and what isn't, you may have your hand on the orbital sander, but you still know it's cheating.

Ellis, I was with you all the way up to that point - and then I fear you effectively threw your argument away. :?

Anyway I think it is a shame that people do often seem to undervalue their skills with tailed devices, so that they can't proudly say "I did this with this, this and this, and incidentally have you seen this incredible jig I came up with in order to do it?" I go within 10ft of a router and you can guarantee I'll make a mess somewhere; wouldn't dream of trusting myself with a belt sander! I'm continually impressed with the ingenuity shown by the power tool-centred. But there we are, these things are deeply ingrained and I doubt this discussion will shift 'em.

 

[woodbloke]

I didn't have a chance to dip into Proffessor Pye's book last night (busy in the 'shop) but I recollect, (I think) that one of the things that can be said to be 'hand made' in the strictest sense are coil pots, made from long fingers of raw clay shaped to form a ceramic pot. If you then add any sort of decoration by using a pointed stick say, it then becomes 'partly hand-made' as the stick is tool which is then 'hand-guided' - Rob

In the strictest sense, use of a pointed stick/scribe to decorate clayware is known to produce a tooled finish, whilst the pot on a whole is hand made/built or hand thrown if cast onto a potter's wheel and formed. Glazing can be by hand (Brushed), dipping or via spray coating prior to and during the firing process.

I did say 'if you then add' and I was assuming that no potter's wheel would have been used, so it's entirely 'hand-made' from the raw material - Rob

 

[GazPal]

I didn't have a chance to dip into Proffessor Pye's book last night (busy in the 'shop) but I recollect, (I think) that one of the things that can be said to be 'hand made' in the strictest sense are coil pots, made from long fingers of raw clay shaped to form a ceramic pot. If you then add any sort of decoration by using a pointed stick say, it then becomes 'partly hand-made' as the stick is tool which is then 'hand-guided' - Rob

In the strictest sense, use of a pointed stick/scribe to decorate clayware is known to produce a tooled finish, whilst the pot on a whole is hand made/built or hand thrown if cast onto a potter's wheel and formed. Glazing can be by hand (Brushed), dipping or via spray coating prior to and during the firing process.

I did say 'if you then add' and I was assuming that no potter's wheel would have been used, so it's entirely 'hand-made' from the raw material - Rob

I know. I was simply adding to the points you'd made, whilst knowing clayware can either be entirely formed and refined by hand or be turned on the wheel in order to refine it's outline using various profiles prior to glaze and firing. In both respects it's hand made.

 

[studders]

Surely you could argue to the extent that if any tool, whether powered or not, that has not itself been hand made, is used on the raw materials then the resultant product ceases to be truly 'Hand Made'?
So, if a Guitar is made, using tools that were produced using tools, then tools, be they hand powered or powered by the Devils Electrickery, have partially done the work.
I think (was it Gazpal?) the definition that comes closest is where the tools must be guided using ones own skill and it does not matter if those tools are Hand or Powered.

 

[studders]

if you power thickness the board in the first place, where's the hand?

My Thicknesser does not feed Wood into itself, nor does it decide which face to plane or in which direction relative to the grain. So it goes back to the idea that guidance is required. I see that as being little different in essence to performing the same task using a hand plane.

 

[GazPal]

Surely you could argue to the extent that if any tool, whether powered or not, that has not itself been hand made, is used on the raw materials then the resultant product ceases to be truly 'Hand Made'?
So, if a Guitar is made, using tools that were produced using tools, then tools, be they hand powered or powered by the Devils Electrickery, have partially done the work.
I think (was it Gazpal?) the definition that comes closest is where the tools must be guided using ones own skill and it does not matter if those tools are Hand or Powered.

Possibly, but - taken to extremes - you run a risk of stearing a possible course in the direction of whether or not the tool in use was produced using organic or inorganic matter. Was it the elephant ivory handle scales or the piece of bog iron used to cast the lever cap that contributed to the work? In all honesty the degree of human input tends to be the dominating factor in terms of crafting method and end result and whether or not something was wholely, or partially hand made, or machine made.

We'd be all to limited in what we could craft if it weren't for tools. How we choose to use them tends to define whether or not the end product is hand made or hand assembled.

 

[Pekka Huhta]

I would approach this on a historical point of view: when the first machines were put to manufacturing items, you got extra marketing potential claiming your product is "machine made" no matter how primitive hand-powered "machine" would be in question. It was better than hand made.

Untill the second world war there would have been many hand operations on all metalworking factories. I could claim that with the primitive machinery of 20's or 30's there would have been proably more hand finishing, filing, hammering and tweaking on any factory-made product than on Karl's planes. And still no-one would have even thought of suggesting that the factory products would have been "hand made". (And, in fact I doubt that many of the factories could have achieved the same precision as Karl, for all that matters.)

I'm working for ABB, building a bit bigger electrical motors. On a 30 megawatt motor weighing 180 ton all the components are hand assembled (well, aided by a 80 ton crane ) by handheld tools. I'm still not claiming that my motors would be "Handmade by ABB". ;D


While I'm amusing myself reading the posts in the thread, I think that the biggest and best thing of the whole thread is a huge appreciation of "hand-made". Think about it: in the recent times it has not been appreciated at all or only by a very limited amount of people. I have a very tight perspective of what is truly hand made, but although I don't agree with all opinions in the thread I can't help feeling very happy about the great enthusiasm the whole term raises. On worse times no-one would have cared wether an item would have been hand made or not.

Pekka

 

[Pvt_Ryan]

I think the argument should be about AUTOMATION instead of interactive use of tools.

A purist would argue that it should be hand tools only from the moment the stock arrives to the finished product. This would be truely hand made.

More liberal people might say well as long as the product was assembled & finished by hand then it is hand made.

I would be in the latter category, I see no problem removing "the rough" with power tools as long as the rest was done by hand in order to say it was "hand made".

I will admit that something like http://www.chainsawcarving.net/ is a grey area though I would contend it is hand made. Using automation as the baseline instead of power tools.

 

[jimi43]

"You say that like its a bad thing..."

"Have some pride and self respect."

"It's not snobbery, and I resent the implication that it is."

I am not walking into that trap Scouse...just read my signature for my view on those retorts.

I am actually a great fan of totally handmade items and the self esteem and pleasure they give the maker and the eventual owner. I am one and the same with my next project which will be a handmade Martin style six string acoustic. I am being so pedantic about the craftsmanship that I am even making the hand tools that I will need for this...my final guitar...my own one for me as an heirloom.

My concern is with elitism and I am not for one minute referring to you...but there can be a huge amount of snobbery in certain followings of one religion of woodworking or another. What I am trying to emphasise..and others have said it far better than me...is that just because a person uses a machine does not mean they are not a skilled craftsman of equal value to a person working with hand tools.

Lathe operators of the old school...without automation are just as skilled as a pole lathe artisan. Skillful use of a router (and I mean magical use) is a learned art. Making the right jig is an art...

Just because I want to make my own planes including the irons and harden and pein for days does not make me a better craftsman than someone who goes out and buys a Lie Nielsen masterpiece and knocks up classical furniture...it just give me greater pleasure and challenge.

Challenge...that is the key here. And challenge does not bring in the bread and butter income!

In summary I know snobbery exists...as I said...in both directions...and that is something I don't particularly like.

Jim

 

[Scouse]

But there we are, these things are deeply ingrained and I doubt this discussion will shift 'em.

Alf, as ever, has provided the voice of reason.

I want to make it clear that I do appreciate that many fine and highly skilled pieces are produced by craftspersons who use powered tools.

What annoys me off is the claim of hand made, particularly in the musical instrument industry; claims made buy individuals who have bought the partial contents of the low end of the Record Power catalogue and a bunch of jigs and templates from Stewart-MacDonald, I think you can see bitter professional experience beginning to show through...

If you make pieces by hand, be proud. If you make pieces by power tools, be proud. Just don't make false claims.

If I have offended anyone with my opinion (especially Jim) then I appologise, but I will not appologise for a strongly held belief.

 

[bugbear]

There's been mention made of muscle powered being important, but I suspect the correlation between hand controlled and hand powered is just a technological one.

There was a period when several machines were muscle powered, but self controlled (automated).

Here is an extreme example.

http://www.ornamentalroseengine.com/ros ... /holtz.php

BugBear

 

[Scouse]

For me the determining factor is the power behind the blade or cutting surface. A lathe can be powered by a wheel full of gerbils, but the blade, it's pressure, depth and movement is controlled by muscle.

With regard to a thicknesser, with no power feed, then a certain level of judgement is required to push the wood through in the correct direction and grain orientation, but there is no human input when it comes to judging the wood flat; a couple of passes and you know it's there, no flattening high spotschecking the face with a known flat surface, no judgement of the correct tool to use.

 

[jimi43]

.....If I have offended anyone with my opinion (especially Jim) then I appologise, but I will not appologise for a strongly held belief.

It would take a bit more that that to offend me my friend...I see your enthusiasm and it is great stuff.

Clearly you are not in the "hand tools good - machine tools bad" camp.

Jim