Any thoughts on the structure of this gate design?

[Harrris303]

Hi all, I've attached a picture of the gate I'm currently building, and just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on the general structure. The main frame is 5x3 planed redwood (apart from the curved top rail which is slightly thinner now that I've cut the curve in it) and the brace was 4x3 planed but I thicknessed it down to 94x51mm to allow the front panelling to drop in flush with the frame (if that makes any sense?!)
My original plan was to drawbore the joints and glue them as well for extra strength, but recently I've thought about forgetting the glue so that it can be popped apart again if needs be in the future.

My main worry is whether the single long brace is enough to support the gate, bearing in mind that it's 1900mm wide and pretty heavy. The mortices for the brace are cut so it has to stay as it is, but I'm wondering whether it could do with another short brace tying it into the top rail for added strength?

Any ideas very welcome. Cheers.

 

[ColeyS1]

I'd have thought an upside down v brace might look best in that situation.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

[RobinBHM]

maybe you could notch the brace into the top and bottom rail rather than position it into the stiles, that way the brace will have more of an angle.

Its best to bevel the top of the brace and bottom rail in order to shed rain.

 

[Harrris303]

Thanks RobinBHM yes I had wondered about the angle of the brace, although annoyingly as I say I've already cut the mortices for it... A bit too hasty as always! I'm really just trying to figure out if I can tie anything else in with this design to add strength, without going totally overboard and bracing left right and centre.
Obviously you won't see any of it from the front anyway so it's not the end of the world but nice to get things right.

 

[dzj]

Shouldn't the angle of the brace be greater than 45 deg?
Perhaps I'm wrong, but if this gate droops, I think the brace will pull apart the mortice and tenons even more.

 

[Harrris303]

I've seen a fair few gates with braces angled less than 45 degrees so didn't really think about that. Although they might all be dodgy designs made by the same person!

 

[CHJ]

Notching brace into bottom and mid rail reduces any 'spread' pressure on the stiles.

 

[Adam9453]

I would have fitted the brace so the centre of the brace fits into the corner of each join thereby supporting the rail and stile.
As you have already cut the mortices in the stile, could you replace the piece you were going to use for the brace with a wider piece so you can make it support the stile as I mention above?

 

[Harrris303]

I see what CHJ means about bracing between horizontals reducing pressure on the stiles. Seems pretty logical.

Regarding using a wider brace to meet both stiles and rails in the corner, I'm just wondering about how wide it would need to be. It might look a bit strange if it was much bigger than the other parts.

The good thing is I'm making it for a family member so there's a bit less pressure for perfection. If the worst comes to the very worst I could just plug the mortices and move the brace completely!

 

[dzj]

Notching brace into bottom and mid rail reduces any 'spread' pressure on the stiles.

Woluldn't the 'spread' pressure still be present at the stile on the hinge side?

 

[Adam9453]

if you're not keen on fitting one wider brace then perhaps fit two braces next to each other, that way it will keep the proportions of each brace looking 'right' thickness wise but give you the additional strength of the extra bracing.

 

[Harrris303]

Yes that could be a good plan. Cheers.

 

[blackrodd]

I would have fitted the brace so the centre of the brace fits into the corner of each join thereby supporting the rail and stile.
As you have already cut the mortices in the stile, could you replace the piece you were going to use for the brace with a wider piece so you can make it support the stile as I mention above?

+ 1 for above, cut and fit the X braces "snug" into each corner, equally.Will make for a stronger job.
And don't forget to bevel the tops of rails to shed the rain water!
Rodders

 

[CHJ]

Notching brace into bottom and mid rail reduces any 'spread' pressure on the stiles.

Woluldn't the 'spread' pressure still be present at the stile on the hinge side?

Yes but only on the mid rail point tenon.

It can be reduced if not eliminated completely by variations of the "A" frame bracing as mentioned by ColeyS1

 

[dzj]

Thanks, now I understand what he meant by the upside-down V.

 

[sion.dovey]

As you have already cut the mortises in the stiles then a small piece of steel bar buried in the bottom of the mid rail and passing through the stiles will remove any doubts of the gate being spread by the strut. A nut threaded onto the end of the bar where it passes through the hinge stile would be the adjustment. It could just be threaded bar as it would be out of sight.

 

[Jacob]

One trad way with heavy gates is to view them as a gallows bracket i.e. hinge stile plus top rail and diagonal brace, these three items being the structure, with everything else hanging off.
You are nearly there with your first sketch but the brace could be at 45º and the middle rail heavier with a big pegged mortice and tenon, bottom rail and meeting rails lighter.
The hinge stile, the middle rail and the brace are the structure - the other stuff is just attached.

I just googled for an image but I could't find one - thousands of clueless gate designs instead!

NB draw-boring is irrelevant here.

 

[Billy Flitch]

Just google framed ledge and brace these enough images to look at and get some ideas off. The most important thing to remember is the bottom of the braces go against the swinging stile and the top end against the locking stile. The joint between the rails and the stile are mortice and tenon the ends of the mortice are splayed so when the wedges are driven into the tenon they turn the tenon into a dovetail and make it imposable to separate in tension or compression.

 

[Jacob]

.....bottom of the braces go against the swinging stile and the top end against the locking stile. ....

Top end goes to the rail, not the opposite stile. It's got to be a triangle - think "gallows bracket"

 

[sion.dovey]

I think the strut should go a little further than halfway along the rail for good support, only halfway and the overhanging portion of the gate can still sag over the years. 5/8 to 3/4 of the way along the rail is more certain, and looks right too.

A couple of drive gates.

And a couple of doors, you can just make out the path of the strut through the partial boarding.