Aftermarket blades for stanleys

[Racers]

Hi,

Modern blades are rubbish, but the old laminated or Crucible steel Record blades are good, and my homemade 3mm O1 steel ones are excellent.

Pete

 

[Jacob]

Personally I wouldn't bother changing any blades until they are worn out, which for most people will take a lifetime or more.
I've only ever needed to change one (on a block plane).

ceers
Jacob

Surpised this has gone unchallenged. In my experience most standard Stanley and Record blades are rubbish - rubbish, that is, if you want a really good edge that will last any time at all..

Not my experience. Nor the experience of the generations of woodworkers whose livelihoods used to depend on these blades, or they wouldn't be so commonplace; they didn't feel the need to swap them.
"A good edge" is possible with most steel (and softer materials like bronze). The longevity of the edge is always a compromise with the ease of sharpening. For me a little and often with average "quality" (whatever that means) thin steel is preferable (and sharper more of the time} than a less frequent and more difficult sharpening of say thick A2 steel.

 

[bugbear]

For me a little and often with average "quality" (whatever that means) thin steel is preferable (and sharper more of the time} than a less frequent and more difficult sharpening of say thick A2 steel.

If both types of blade degrade gradually from "just sharpened" to "needs sharpening", the sharpness graphs are the same shape (just different lengths on the time axis), and thus the proportion of the time spent in the "sharper" state are identical.

If that's too abstract, we can do numbers:

Assume we have "mega-metal" which holds an edge 10 times longer than "cheese".

If it takes 100 minutes of use to degrade, it will spend 10 minutes at "super sharp" (defined as 90% of "just sharpened").

The "cheese" (in this example) needs sharpening every 10 minutes. It will spend 1 minute at "super sharp" during this 10 minutes.

It will do this 10 times. Thus, in 100 minutes of use it will be "super sharp" for 10 minutes, just like the "mega metal".

(yes, I rigged the number to make the example easy to follow).

Result: both blades are "super sharp" for the same amount (and proportion) of time.

BugBear

 

[bugbear]

Hi,

Modern blades are rubbish, but the old laminated or Crucible steel Record blades are good, and my homemade 3mm O1 steel ones are excellent.

Pete

By "modern" I assume you mean modern Record and Stanley?

BugBear

 

[NickUrquhart]

I would say a Clifton is the top choice for edge quality and longevity, but blimey can they be a pain to set up in a No.7 or 4 1/2. I've tended to keep the Hock A2 in the smoother and 'scorp' the edge of the Clifton and use it to hog in the No.5. What i've found is that the thicker Clifton + Stanley cap iron will make the blade clamp slip forwards or backwards on the curve of the cap iron, making it almost impossible to set the iron. What i do is pull back the blade cap on the screw, so that the front edge of the clamp sits on a flat part of the cap iron. Not perfect, but the Clifton lasts ages between sharpenings and it works, though resetting is a circus performance.

Out of interest, does anyone else set their Stanley using a hammer on the top of the iron? I don't think i've ever used the adjuster as it was intended because tapping gives you a much finer set, as with traditional Beech planes.

Anyone know the thickness of the Isles iron for the No.7 ?
all the best, Nick.

 

[Jacob]

For me a little and often with average "quality" (whatever that means) thin steel is preferable (and sharper more of the time} than a less frequent and more difficult sharpening of say thick A2 steel.

If both types of blade degrade gradually from "just sharpened" to "needs sharpening", the sharpness graphs are the same shape (just different lengths on the time axis), and thus the proportion of the time spent in the "sharper" state are identical.

If that's too abstract, we can do numbers:

Assume we have "mega-metal" which holds an edge 10 times longer than "cheese".

If it takes 100 minutes of use to degrade, it will spend 10 minutes at "super sharp" (defined as 90% of "just sharpened").

The "cheese" (in this example) needs sharpening every 10 minutes. It will spend 1 minute at "super sharp" during this 10 minutes.

It will do this 10 times. Thus, in 100 minutes of use it will be "super sharp" for 10 minutes, just like the "mega metal".

(yes, I rigged the number to make the example easy to follow).

Result: both blades are "super sharp" for the same amount (and proportion) of time.

BugBear

Hmm. Right. So there is no point in paying more for mega metal blades - just as I thought!
Take into account that they are also thicker and hence more metal has to be removed for the same degree of sharpening then they look even more pointless. You missed that detail BB, otherwise you put it very well.

 

[matthewwh]

Thin blades are not the problem, they can be very good, many postwar planes however were fitted with incorrectly heat treated blades which either need to be re-heat treated or replaced.

Even Mick Hudson agrees that the cliffy cap iron on a 3mm cliffy blade is overkill. The cap irons were originally made for replacing the hunchbacked monstrosities that plague thin ironed planes but when they started manufacturing Clifton planes there was no sense in fitting anything else.

I'm thinking about stocking good quality thin plane irons for this very reason - no mouth or yoke issues and you still get the vast majority of the improvement that you would by fitting a thick blade and properly designed cap iron.

I had a look at one of Rob Cosman's pinnacle irons the other day - a truly beautiful piece of workmanship and an effective solution, but perhaps a little over engineered for most people in this situation - it's a very big portion of the price of a new plane to fork out for upgrading an old one.

 

[jimi43]

How much do RC's work out at then Matt?

Jim

 

[matthewwh]

£89.95 for a 2"

or £94.20 for a 2-3/8"

:shock:

 

[Jacob]

..
I'm thinking about stocking good quality thin plane irons for this very reason - no mouth or yoke issues and you still get the vast majority of the improvement that you would by fitting a thick blade and properly designed cap iron...

Fashions come and fashions go!
Old Stanley and Record blades go on for ever.

 

[rocksteadyeddy]

So if I were to fit say a Ray Iles blade and a clifton cap iron what modifications, if any, would I have to make?

 

[matthewwh]

Depends on what you are fitting them to, but in most cases it would be an easier job than doing a thick replacement iron.

 

[jimi43]

£89.95 for a 2"

or £94.20 for a 2-3/8"

:shock:

:shock: :shock: I think I will get the kiln out again! :wink:

Actually...I have been thinking about this for a while now...

The shoulder iron I made for the infill...works really well and seems to hold its edge...I ran it through a few jobs today putting in a window and it was easily the best for the job.

I am thinking about getting some more 01 and whittling up a 2" to start with....now that I have some decent Swedish files to do the keyway...and maybe a new cap iron and see how it goes. I have a spare No.4 that I could open the mouth on without worrying about screwing it up.

Jim

 

[rocksteadyeddy]

Sorry its at the start of the post.... No 7 stanley bailey

Cheers edd

 

[matthewwh]

Should be straightforward enough, as one of the previous posts mentioned they don't all fit absolutely perfectly so you may lose some of the range of adjustment, but most work requires between a 0 and 4 thou shaving so the rest is kinda superfluous anyway.

 

[ali27]

Would replacing the stanley cap irons with Clifton
cap irons be ok without changing the yoke?

Is it important that the whole blade is stiff or
just the cutting edge?

If it´s just the cutting edge I wonder if the whole
bevel needs to be very stiff or only the microbevel?

Matthew thanks for responding on the backlash
thing. Yes I knew about what you described to me.
I just find it annoying the backlash.

Would replacing the stanley cap iron with a clifton
or QS cap iron increase/decrease backlash?

Ali

 

[Jacob]

..
Matthew thanks for responding on the backlash
thing. Yes I knew about what you described to me.
I just find it annoying the backlash...

Having no backlash at all is even more annoying. You need a bit of slack so that you can feel the adjuster taking it up as you move the blade in or out. Feedback in fact. With no backlash you can't quite tell what is happening.
They all have backlash (unless new and not run in) and it increases as they wear. You just get used to flipping the wheel from push to pull.

 

[bugbear]

For me a little and often with average "quality" (whatever that means) thin steel is preferable (and sharper more of the time} than a less frequent and more difficult sharpening of say thick A2 steel.

If both types of blade degrade gradually from "just sharpened" to "needs sharpening", the sharpness graphs are the same shape (just different lengths on the time axis), and thus the proportion of the time spent in the "sharper" state are identical.

If that's too abstract, we can do numbers:

Assume we have "mega-metal" which holds an edge 10 times longer than "cheese".

If it takes 100 minutes of use to degrade, it will spend 10 minutes at "super sharp" (defined as 90% of "just sharpened").

The "cheese" (in this example) needs sharpening every 10 minutes. It will spend 1 minute at "super sharp" during this 10 minutes.

It will do this 10 times. Thus, in 100 minutes of use it will be "super sharp" for 10 minutes, just like the "mega metal".

(yes, I rigged the number to make the example easy to follow).

Result: both blades are "super sharp" for the same amount (and proportion) of time.

BugBear

Hmm. Right. So there is no point in paying more for mega metal blades - just as I thought!
Take into account that they are also thicker and hence more metal has to be removed for the same degree of sharpening then they look even more pointless. You missed that detail BB, otherwise you put it very well.

So your "sharper more of the time" was wrong then?

There's a lot of points I didn't make - here's a few of them:

Another benefit of blades that stay sharp longer is less interruption to your work.

Less frequent sharpening reduces the overhead of sharpening.

Not all "mega-metal" blades are thick.

A mega-metal that stays sharp for 10 times longer does NOT neccessarily take 10 times longer to sharpen.

I seem to recall you wishing for better edge retention on the cheesy blade you back bevelled...

BugBear

 

[Vann]

Would replacing the stanley cap irons with Clifton
cap irons be ok without changing the yoke?

Yes. The cap iron should change over with no modification required. There seems to be some variance in Stanley planes over the years that can cause problems but generally it's only if you put a thicker iron in that there are problems.

Is it important that the whole blade is stiff or
just the cutting edge?

I believe stiffness is more important at the cutting edge, but the greater the mass, even further from the cutting edge, the less likely the iron will chatter.

Would replacing the stanley cap iron with a clifton
or QS cap iron increase/decrease backlash?

The slot in a Clifton cap-iron is about the same size as the slot in a Stanley/record so there should be about the same amount of backlash. I can't speak for the QS cap-irons.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

I've got a Japanese laminated blade from Axminster in my #5. I really like it, but I doubt it's better than an Isles one.

I am itching to get one of those...but they were out of stock when I went to Sittingbourne....

Are they really good?

Jim

I have been using a Smoothcut for several years. About 2 years ago I began using it in a #51 shooting plane, so it has to deal with hardwood end grain all the time. It does this fantastically. No chip out.

I believe that the Smoothcut is the same blade, just rebadged.

I have another in a Stanley #18 blockplane. It is a great blade, but this action is hardly likely to have tested the brittleness issue that others have queried.

Regards from Perth

Derek