Fitting Lie Neilsen blade to my Record No.5

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Chipmonk

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Hi there, I'm wondering if anyone else has tried to do this?

I've got an Irwin Record No.5 jack plane (14" with 2" blade). It's a year old and dubious quality, but good enough for my needs, however, I'm already fed up of sharpening it. It seems to hold its edge for several hours (while I'm sleeping), but I'm making it my shooting board plane and it needs to be tip-top.

So.. I bought a Lie Neilsen blade and chip breaker, which arrived today. They are really nice bits of kit. I tried putting them into the Record and it doesn't fit. The LN seems shorter, so the Y-adjusting lever can't reach the adjusting nut (to stay on track and push it down). It's close, but it's not going to work.

I didn't expect this, but I should have done more research. I'm willing to do some modifications to make it work, but just wondering whether anyone has done similar and what they'd suggest?
 
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raffo

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The chipbreaker slot has to be just in the right position to fit a given plane. Have you tried the original one?
 

Inspector

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Chipmonk

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You probably need to open the mouth up as well. (I'm waiting for a donor plane for a Clifton iron.)

Thanks for the response.

I tried that. I used the frog adjustment screw and even loosened the front screws and re-set it for more depth, but it's the shortness of the blade that seems to be the issue. I'll have a look at that y-lever, cheers for the link!
Update: Ordered a couple (I got another blade for my 1940s stanley no.4, which I haven't tried to fit yet, but can see will also be an issue.
 

raffo

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I made a few 1/8" thick, like LN, plane irons last year. I managed to fit one on a MF no. 18 by moving the frog back and filing the top of the front of the mouth at an angle, as per DW recommendation, to allow clearance for the chips to pass over the chipbreaker. I used the original cb. I can get fine and slightly less fine shavings w/o widening the mouth with these modifications.

The mouth of a vintage plane is usually less than 1/4" wide, modern ones are that or more, so they may accept the LN iron more readily.
 
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Chipmonk

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The chipbreaker slot has to be just in the right position to fit a given plane. Have you tried the original one?
I have, but it has the same (similar?) issue. I'm not 100% if the lever linked above will fix it, but at £5.80, it's worth a shot. Rather that than changing the shape of the iron!
 

Chipmonk

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I made a few 1/8" thick, like LN, plane irons last year. I managed to fit one on a MF no. 18 by moving the frog back and filing the top of the front of the mouth at an angle, as per DW recommendation, to allow clearance for the chips to pass over the chipbreaker. I used the original cb. I can get fine and slightly less fine shavings w/o widening the mouth with these modifications.

The mouth of a vintage plane is usually less than 1/4" wide, modern ones are that or more, so they may accept the LN iron more readily.
I've just had another look and I suspect I may have to modify the mouth, from what I'm seeing, but the lever is definitely an issue, so I'll see how I go.

It seems like even with the lever detached, I can't fit the mouth while also getting support from the whole frog face (i.e. when the blade is protruding, it's too far forward and there's nowhere for the chip to go). I can't move the frog back any more, since it stops supporting the blade. I need to spend some more time with it, but it seems like both that, and the lever length is an issue. I'm fine with doing some mods, but I'll see if I can avoid it.
 

raffo

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I have, but it has the same (similar?) issue. I'm not 100% if the lever linked above will fix it, but at £5.80, it's worth a shot. Rather that than changing the shape of the iron!

If the iron is too thick, the original y-lever won't reach to engage the chipbreaker. That after market one is supposed to have a longer arm so one can adjust and file to proper length.

Am I understanding your problem correctly? a picture may help.
 

Chipmonk

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If the iron is too thick, the original y-lever won't reach to engage the chipbreaker. That after market one is supposed to have a longer arm so one can adjust and file to proper length.

Am I understanding your problem correctly? a picture may help.
You're right, I've had another look (while trying to get a photo, but it's really hard to see the problem in a photo) and I think the longer lever arms might actually do the trick. They'll help force the breaker down, while also keeping a grip on the adjustment knob. I didn't know they existed, so if they work, it will save me a metric s***-tonne of grinding.
 

raffo

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Here's an alternative to replacing the yoke here in the US. Also, if the depth adjustment slope bothers you, depth adjustment wheels replacements are also available.

 

Chipmonk

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Wow! Soooo shiiinnnny! I want one! I feel like I probably will need it, so I should get it right now.

No, no, stop it! Count to 10!
 

Chipmonk

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Could you modify the slot in the plane to fit?
I don't think so... I haven't thought of that, but it seems like it would only half-fix the lever-arm length issue. If the hole were deeper, so it could reach it, it would have a different angle and potentially slip off or more easily break the yoke. I don't know, though. The more I've looked at this, and read some comments from Workshopheaven's site and woodbywright, it looks like both the yoke/lever arms need to be longer and the mouth needs to be filed wider. I've done the latter before, so that's fine, the yoke replacement seems straightforward enough (need to use a center-punch or something to get the pin out).
 

IWW

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I think it would be wise to diagnose your problem correctly before applying any remedy!

Typically, there are two problems that can arise when fitting 'modern', thicker blades in a Baily style plane. The first is the wrong distance from the toe end of the chipbreaker to the slot that engages the cam of the adjuster yoke. That has to be spot-on, even 1.5mm off optimal will cause trouble due to the limited arc of travel of the adjuster cam. If the distance is the same on your original CB & the new one, then the CB should not be the source of the problem.

The second common problem is that the cam can't reach far enough through the thicker blade to engage the slot in the chipbreaker properly. In extreme cases, it won't reach at all, but more commonly it just touches the edge at the full extent of its travel which isn't enough to get the blade extruded or retracted fully.

I'm somewhat confused by your various descriptions & terminologies, but it seems like you have the latter problem, or possibly a combination of both. A new yoke with a longer cam should be the solution in that case. Don't do anything to the bottom part of the yoke, i.e., the part that engages the thumbwheel, that will NOT be a cause of the problem unless someone fitted a weird yoke, which seems highly unlikely in a 1 yr old plane.

If you are fitting a thicker blade than original, you should be able to set the frog back, even to the point where the bevel of the sole is sitting a little proud of the frog. The thicker the blade, the further up the back of the blade the sharpening bevel goes, so the blade will clear the sole bevel even if it is jutting forward a bit. To what extent you can get away with this is subject to the vagaries of individual planes. Manufacturing tolerances have gone to hell in a handbasket since late last century, so I'd need to examine your particular plane before making any further judgements...

Cheers,
Ian
 

shed9

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Personally I suspect you will end up with a new LN blade & chip breaker and an unusable modern Record if you take a file and other tools to it to modify. I wouldn't be surprised that even if you manage to get it fitted, you will just find another reason why it's most probably a bad idea.

I'd sell the Record and get a better plane to start with. If you get one more likely to fit the LN blade then great, if not, sell the LN kit and get the alternative modern blades that will.
 

Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)

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It's not the blade ... it's the LN chipbreaker. The slot for the blade projection is further forward by 1/4". The LN chipbreaker will work will with LN planes, and all else is a lottery.

Try the original chipbbreaker with the blade.

I suspect that the blade is too thick anyway, even if you open the mouth - the yoke will be unlikely to reach through the slot to make adjustments. If so, get the Veritas replacement.

Regards from Perth

Derek
 

Hornbeam

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You have got 3 issues to consider
  • The bade is thicker so the yoke possibly wont be long enough to engage in the cap iron
  • the blade is thicker so the frog will have to move backwards. If it cant go further back you will have to file the front of teh mouth to open it uo
  • The new chip breaker may have the slot for the yoke to engage in the wrong place
I would try the new chip breaker with the old iron to see if the slot is in the right place. If it isnt then it wont work and you will need a different chip breaker, (If you try and file it you will end up with sloppy depth adjustment and loads of backlash)
Try the new blade with the old cap iron, this will show if the yoke will reach (if it doesnt you need a longer yoke) and if the frog can be adjusted to accomodate the thicker blade. I would try and steer away from filing the mouth.

I have a number of planes with different combinations
If you speak to workshop heaven they have number of options. I have found the quangsheng chip breakers work for me in record planes. I would also recommend the thin laminated Tsunesaburo blades as a direct replacement with no messing around
Ian
 
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