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Stanley Bedrock 607

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AndyT

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Dave, when you get your lever cap, this old thread may help.

 

Dave65

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Dave, when you get your lever cap, this old thread may help.

Thanks Andy, it’s almost like you knew what my next question would be!:D. I really like the look of the lever caps that have not been plated, just cleaned and buffed up. I have access to buffing / polishing wheel at work but I wouldn’t want to over polish it and make it too shiny.
 

Cheshirechappie

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With regard to my plane , its only very slightly concave so I'm going to wait until its back together and give it a try, with the new cap iron in, and see if it works ok. If it does work ok , then it will be left alone and used as normal.
That's wise.

The pragmatic woodworker's test of whether a plane is flat enough is to plane some wood longer than the plane sole. If the plane can be adjusted to give gossamer-thin shavings all along the board, it'll be flat enough for any practical woodworking purpose. Make sure the work is well supported on a good bench, though!

There's a story told about Clifton planes when they were still made by Clico. They went to a great deal of effort to ensure that the sole castings were stable, carefully machined, surface ground to a finish and finally checked against a calibrated and certified straight edge. They still had the occasional phone call from purchasers complaining that they's checked the sole against a straight edge, and it wasn't flat. They then had the task of finding a diplomatic way of telling the purchaser that they had just discovered that their 'straight edge' wasn't as straight as the plane sole!

Another problem with 'flattening' long Bailey type planes is that they are a wee bit flexible, especially the bits front and rear of the central webs. Quite a few people have reported problems when using the oft-recommended method of flattening by rubbing plane sole on abrasive sheets backed by glass or similar, because the metal removal tends to happen where pressure is applied, and not necessarily at the high spots. For this reason, it's probably best to avoid any such flattening on long Bailey planes unless the plane is utterly useless without such treatment.

The manufacturers finish with a surface grinder, and with the plane held in a specialist fixture to stop it flexing under the cut. Clearly, that's not an option for the shed-based woodworker. If access to a surface plate is possible, the best bet is to use the engineering technique of blueing on the surface plate and filing or scraping to flat, but that's not possible for most woodworkers either - not many have large enough surface plates!

If you REALLY have to lap a long plane sole, it will pay to keep the downward pressure where the high spots are, and check frequently, if necessary by re-assembling the plane and planing wood with it. Only check plane sole flatness with a straight edge if you KNOW how straight the straight edge is!
 

Dave65

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They then had the task of finding a diplomatic way of telling the purchaser that they had just discovered that their 'straight edge' wasn't as straight as the plane sole!
This I like :D .
It was my intention to definitely flatten the sole, now after some good advice from the forum, I’m more inclined to leave it alone as long as it works ok.
 

IWW

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..... I’m more inclined to leave it alone as long as it works ok....
I think that's what you'd call un-faultable logic.... ;)
As Chesirechappie said, if the plane will take a very thin even shaving from end to end of a flat board at least a bit longer than the plane, it's flat enough for purpose. I mucked about with a few planes way back, when people started fussing about soles being flat to within some ridiculously fine tolerance levels. Mostly I made no difference to performance, or actually made it worse in one instance. Later, when I learnt a little bit more about planes I found the problems I was trying to "fix" usually lay elsewhere, in particular, not-so-sharp blades and ill-fitting cap-irons.

That said, a concave sole is definitely a problem, so if your plane only cuts at the beginning & end of the board, it'll need attention, but wait 'til you get to that bridge before you jump off it!

Cheers,
 

Cabinetman

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Very interesting, when I arrived at teacher training college in Leeds in the 70's one of the lecturers looked at all our planes, the problem was he said that Stanley (We had all been instructed to buy a number 4 Stanley plane) had flattened the soles of the planes using a linisher which had ridden up and removed the one bit of the sole that was important, the bit just in front of the mouth.
We had to strip the planes down to just the casting and they were sent back to Stanley where they were flattened using a Surface grinder. So T trees if you are flattening soles on abrasive papers make sure they are well stuck down over their full length. Ian
I must say T trees an awful lot of what you were saying went straight over my head, and I’ve hand planed an awful lot of wood, I’m just curious are you American by any chance?
I do remember being told that green Rizla‘s are exactly 1000th of an inch thick, the engineers used to use them by sticking them onto the piece of material they were working on and when the cutter came into contact with the Rizla and whisked it away, they could zero the machine.
The things you remember, strange isn’t it. Ian
 

Ttrees

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Cabinetman
A strange assumption to make from my accent.
I'm on the shamrock shore as it happens.
Amongst many other things, I have failed to lap four planes I can remember that ended up in a not so flat state afterwards.
Two of the first were shoddy adjustable mouth planes, when the shoe was adjusted it would lift the plane off the work.
This should have taught me the lesson I know now, which I describe in detail about keeping the edges of the plane from getting dubbed leading to a convex profile, and movable mouths need to be on the same plane as the sole.

Wait I'm mistaken, I had an old welded Record no.5 plane that was really thin, before I made it worse and the ends ended up being about as thick as a soggy wafer.
These were when I used to do the same thing demonstrated by nearly everyone...
having a super clean abrasive roll clamped down taught, on a long lap that wouldn't deflect.

I can remember some more things also if one wants to know.
That no.8 plane I done the same thing to aswell!
I ended up scraping that one which was really vicious.
I have another no.5 scraped a bit better at the folks, it came in the same state as Dave's Bedrock.
What about some more numpty mistakes?
Incorrectly lapped a grinder tool rest plate and it's still there, I presume it might help in this case with stiction.
That's only a bit o steel though.
What about making and lapping a keyway?
whilst doing it as carefully as you can, tapping firmly into the pulley and the motor shaft,
and exactly half way, it blowing out a section of the aluminium pulley where the grub screw was?


This was when I was just completely under the illusion by copying all the woodworking pros.

Is that enough instances of me being a numpty to take flatness into consideration?

I ain't saying that all planes should be lapped,
I'm just saying the general consensus on t'internet advocates the wrong way to do it.
Most folks who go as far as Dave cleaning the plane, and dressing it up,
or just stumble on one with a good rust patina, its safe to say they
probably would want to lap the plane, whilst putting full trust in the master of the craft.
Woodworking that is!
You'll get away with it on a no.4, but when you've got anything longer and out of flat, and the plane is definatly not behaving nicely in use as other planes one has..
then the principal of lapping must be adhered to, for the sake of the tool.
Might not be a good idea to do atall, if the casting is thin, there could be a pocket that you might "discover" and have to look at it!

Hope ye all had a good chuckle at my expense. 😅
All the best

Tom
 
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Phil Pascoe

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I do remember being told that green Rizla‘s are exactly 1000th of an inch thick, the engineers used to use them by sticking them onto the piece of material they were working on and when the cutter came into contact with the Rizla and whisked it away, they could zero the machine.
The things you remember, strange isn’t it. Ian
I wonder how thick the adhesive was? :)
 

Cabinetman

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That’s a very good point Phil, the adhesive of course was already on the Rizla, gum Arabic I think, same as on the old stamps so probably negligible, it’s probably just a load of old rubbish anyway.
Tom, thank you for your long list of numpyyness, please, I wasn’t criticising you, I was just saying I didn’t understand the nuances, I don’t know why I asked if you were American apart from they do get very serious about things.
I don’t know if I’m right or if I’m wrong but I don’t possess a long plane, everything I work on is finished with my old number four, about five years ago after reading one of the experts I looked at the soul of my plane against the light with a straight edge and realised that it had moved at some point over the preceding 35 years, so I got some 1/2” float glass and some grinding paste stripped the plane and flattered it nicely as far as I was concerned, my first problem occurred when I screwed the frog and the handles back on, the act of screwing into the cast-iron deformed it in those areas - my gast was really flabbered, so that was a lesson learnt and I had to start again with the plain complete this time, my second problem was that the grinding paste had roughened the sole and the plane was horrible to use for a fortnight. Ian
 

MGH

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Dave You have a very nice example of a 607 bedrock there and for an amazing price. I’ve got one myself which is very nice to use, but the sole is a little pitted although it doesn’t affect its use. I also paid quite a lot more for it on eBay a few years ago than yours. If you keep checking on eBay the missing parts will turn up there’s much more to choose from in the US. try to make sure you Get a lever cap with keyhole shaped hole not a kidney shape one as I don’t think they were introduced until the thirties and if you want authenticity it should just say bedrock. Looking at your pictures I think you have a type 5 or 6, most likely a 6 as they were made from 1912-1921. Another site to help identify it: Stanley Bed Rock Plane Types - Bob Kaune - Antique & Used Tools This site will also help you with the iron and chip breaker. Good luck hope something comes along soon. Martin
 

Dave65

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That said, a concave sole is definitely a problem, so if your plane only cuts at the beginning & end of the board, it'll need attention, but wait 'til you get to that bridge before you jump off it!
Hopefully I will get a nice long , even shaving and I will be able to leave the plane as it is 😀 . Thanks to one of the videos Tom provided, the David Weaver one, I now have a lot better idea of the importance of a correctly fitted lever cap.
 

Ttrees

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Great to see someone who has a drive to find real skills, and not only interested in
edited and flashy stuff, and sees value in real time video.

I will add that to take full length shavings the work needs to be flat beforehand.
Another thing you might notice is David is using the cap iron that is set very close to the cutting edge, as you can see shavings coming straight up out of the plane, compared to curlier shavings you might see wth other folks.

Using the cap iron combined with holding the work in the vice both vastly reduce the chance for the plane to nose dive off the end, creating a convex profile.
See David Charlesworth's planing a straight edge video's to understand this.

As you can see the plane will not cut into a hollow, it would need to be really really convex for a plane to be able to do so,
Material deflection is another thing to be aware of, if you have a thin panel with the bowed side down, it will sit on the corners, and not see saw about.
You can flip the board over and take out the errors to counter and eliminate deflection/springing back.
Only then have you got to the stage you might "eventually" notice a plane that needs further tuning...
But by then you have achieved your goal of a flat panel already.:D

Just in case you get the impression that the plane is needing work when it might be better to leave it.

All the best
Tom
 

Dave65

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Dave You have a very nice example of a 607 bedrock there and for an amazing price. I’ve got one myself which is very nice to use, but the sole is a little pitted although it doesn’t affect its use. I also paid quite a lot more for it on eBay a few years ago than yours. If you keep checking on eBay the missing parts will turn up there’s much more to choose from in the US. try to make sure you Get a lever cap with keyhole shaped hole not a kidney shape one as I don’t think they were introduced until the thirties and if you want authenticity it should just say bedrock. Looking at your pictures I think you have a type 5 or 6, most likely a 6 as they were made from 1912-1921. Another site to help identify it: Stanley Bed Rock Plane Types - Bob Kaune - Antique & Used Tools This site will also help you with the iron and chip breaker. Good luck hope something comes along soon. Martin
Thanks for the link Martin. I think you are right with type 6, the only differences I can see between a 5 and 6 are in the lever cap,iron and chip breaker, which are all missing so I will never know for sure. The important thing is that it works well, but I do like the idea of it looking authentic.
The lever cap I have found has the key hole shaped hole but has no markings, which is the closest I can find at the moment, I will keep looking but I’m in no rush. You are correct about there being more available in the US, the one‘s I’ve seen are really expensive when include the shipping. I have found a guy,in the US, on Instagram That seems to collect bedrock‘s so I may contact him to see if he has any available, if not I will just enjoy using the plane.
 

Dave65

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Great to see someone who has a drive to find real skills, and not only interested in
edited and flashy stuff, and sees value in real time video.

I will add that to take full length shavings the work needs to be flat beforehand.
Another thing you might notice is David is using the cap iron that is set very close to the cutting edge, as you can see shavings coming straight up out of the plane, compared to curlier shavings you might see wth other folks.

Using the cap iron combined with holding the work in the vice both vastly reduce the chance for the plane to nose dive off the end, creating a convex profile.
See David Charlesworth's planing a straight edge video's to understand this.

As you can see the plane will not cut into a hollow, it would need to be really really convex for a plane to be able to do so,
Material deflection is another thing to be aware of, if you have a thin panel with the bowed side down, it will sit on the corners, and not see saw about.
You can flip the board over and take out the errors to counter and eliminate deflection/springing back.
Only then have you got to the stage you might "eventually" notice a plane that needs further tuning...
But by then you have achieved your goal of a flat panel already.:D

Just in case you get the impression that the plane is needing work when it might be better to leave it.

All the best
Tom
Thanks for the advice and video Tom, more viewing for this evening :D . My preference is to watch someone make things with basic tools and skill , much like MikeG has done with his kitchen dresser thread.
i think the issue is the internet is full of people telling you that you must do things a certain way without also telling you of the pitfalls of not carrying out the sad task correctly, and in my case you may be better off leaving well alone. Luckily we have some good members of this forum willing to freely share their knowledge and skill, they are not doing it to gain likes or subscribers.
 

David C

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That little DVD section is something which I go through with all my students.

One of the valuable lessons is, that for a component, roughly similar in length to the plane, no straight edge is needed.

David C
 

Dave65

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The lever cap arrived Friday, along with a frog, iron, cap iron and a low profile knob, all from a 1910 USA No6. The lever cap looks like an early one as it has the keyhole shaped hole, the low knob also looks correct for an early model, the iron is marked Stanley USA but looks newer than the other bits, no markings on the cap iron or frog so no idea about these. I did message the seller to ask how he had dated the parts but he hasn’t responded.
0702A313-72E1-4279-9BF3-79886A23C6C3.jpeg

Everything was given a good clean and the iron sharpened.
DC383E03-72C0-4A37-B407-E51D68097EA4.jpeg

and I’m quite happy with the result, until I can find a genuine Bedrock lever cap :)
75F43DF5-162A-45AF-9841-115AB95BC718.jpeg

And the best bit is that it works, a nice even shaving off a 1500mm length of pine held in a workmate, so should be even better to use once I have made my bench.
2355F8BF-B880-4D32-90A7-C40673854845.jpeg
 
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