A2 Plane Iron Users

[woodbrains]

Jacob wrote.
It's not a split in opinion it's a split in experience. Some people have had a poor experience, some have not. Trying to blame it on honing seems very improbable. For a start, my freehand honing isn't "disciplined and precise" yet I get good results

Hello,

I'm not suggesting people have opinions without experience, in which case, it is all the same. A2 has likers and loathers, whereas O1 doesn't have the same polarising effect--everyone agrees it is good. Therefore there is something that each individual does consistently i.e. sharpening, or, to a lesser extent, the use to which they put the tool, but have different experiences with the steel. In my opinion it is perfectly likely that the sharpening is a cause of the difference. Those who sharpen better may have a slight advantage in their experience using the A2, than those who do not.

Incidentally, it is perfectly feasible to sharpen both A2 and O1 consistently poorly and not discern the difference between the two, either. We are talking about achieving the finest possible edges here. Perfunctory simply will not do with the sort of work I and many others like to do.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

....... A2 has likers and loathers, whereas O1 doesn't have the same polarising effect--everyone agrees it is good. Therefore there is something that each individual does consistently i.e. sharpening, or, to a lesser extent, the use to which they put the tool, but have different experiences with the steel. In my opinion it is perfectly likely that the sharpening is a cause of the difference. Those who sharpen better may have a slight advantage in their experience using the A2, than those who do not.

So you said at the beginning! No point in conducting a survey if you are going to ignore the results - everybody else has come to the blatantly obvious conclusion that there is variation in the steel and that it has nothing at all to do with sharpening.

 

[JohnCee]

Edges will crumble with all steel if the bevel angle is too low. How low is too low depends on the type or treatment of the steel, that's all you need to keep in mind.

But my point is that some A2s will crumble when others don't when sharpened at exactly the same angle and with similar usage.

Jim

yebbut there's also similar variation in o1, only people don't go on about it so much.
One of my set of ashley iles o1 chisels has a crumbly edge, for example.....

 

[Jacob]

Edges will crumble with all steel if the bevel angle is too low. How low is too low depends on the type or treatment of the steel, that's all you need to keep in mind.

But my point is that some A2s will crumble when others don't when sharpened at exactly the same angle and with similar usage.

Jim

yebbut there's also similar variation in o1, only people don't go on about it so much.....

.Presumably because it doesn't happen so often.

 

[woodbrains]

....... A2 has likers and loathers, whereas O1 doesn't have the same polarising effect--everyone agrees it is good. Therefore there is something that each individual does consistently i.e. sharpening, or, to a lesser extent, the use to which they put the tool, but have different experiences with the steel. In my opinion it is perfectly likely that the sharpening is a cause of the difference. Those who sharpen better may have a slight advantage in their experience using the A2, than those who do not.

So you said at the beginning! No point in conducting a survey if you are going to ignore the results - everybody else has come to the blatantly obvious conclusion that there is variation in the steel and that it has nothing at all to do with sharpening.

We are not talking about variation in steel--that is a quality control issue. Clearly if someone gets a dud, they won't like it. No, two A2 tools from the same manufacturer, within QC tolerances, given to two woodworkers. One likes one does not, why? This is what I am trying to find out as the same senario with O1 does not have such a polarising effect, it would seem.

There haven't actually been any results yet; just some likers saying so and some dislikers saying not. This, we already know.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

4 people have no complaint as they have had no problems. 3 have had problems and that is why they complain. Perhaps you should give them some advice on honing techniques? Could you describe yours in detail so they can see where they are going wrong?
Personally I don't need any advice, not having a problem with A2.

 

[JohnCee]

One likes one does not, why?
Mike.

because one doesn't know how to sharpen properly.

 

[woodbrains]

One likes one does not, why?
Mike.

because one doesn't know how to sharpen properly.

Hello,

A likeminded individual, and it only took 2 pages of posts to find you! Now that is a result.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

One likes one does not, why?
Mike.

because one doesn't know how to sharpen properly.

......
yebbut there's also similar variation in o1, only people don't go on about it so much.
One of my set of ashley iles o1 chisels has a crumbly edge, for example.....

So obviously you have one chisel you don't know how to sharpen properly!
What exactly are you doing differently with that chisel? Once you tell us that, the mystery will be solved. :lol: :lol:
Er, why are you doing it differently with that one chisel, or is that a silly question?

 

[woodbrains]

So obviously you have one chisel you don't know how to sharpen properly!
What exactly are you doing differently with that chisel? Once you tell us that, the mystery will be solved. :lol: :lol:
Er, why are you doing it differently with that one chisel, or is that a silly question?

The only mystery is, why you keep going on about quality control issues when I have re-iterated half a dozen times what I'm trying to find out. One owner having a dud chisel or plane iron in a batch, that will not hone an edge, is a manufacturing defect. I am wondering why, perfect A2 tools, from the same manufacturer, are loved by some and hated by others. Logically, there must be something differerent about the way they are sharpened, or used, that causes the difference as the tool is a constant in this case. I am wondering why there is such a strong feeling for or against A2 over more regular high carbon steel. It is not difficult, or at least I thought it wasn't.

David Savage dislikes Blue Spruce chisels, for example, yet someone here gets along fine with them, Why the split? They are clearly fine tools in all respects, but use A2 steel. What is it about the stuff? Is it just that some traditionalists are determined to dislike new-fangled stuff, while others are willing to embrace it, so find things to like or dislike about it whether it is their or not?

My idea was that people would simply state that they liked/disliked A2, what media they used to sharpen it and to what degree of grit size and if they used a jig or not. I thought I might see a trend that could explain the split. Since we cannot get over incidentals like QC issues, then I don't think we will ever get a sample big enough to draw a conclusion.

Mike.

 

[JohnCee]

One likes one does not, why?
Mike.

because one doesn't know how to sharpen properly.

......
yebbut there's also similar variation in o1, only people don't go on about it so much.
One of my set of ashley iles o1 chisels has a crumbly edge, for example.....

So obviously you have one chisel you don't know how to sharpen properly!

No, I have one chisel that I have to sharpen at a higher angle than the rest, otherwise the edge crumbles.

 

[bobbybirds]

So obviously you have one chisel you don't know how to sharpen properly!
What exactly are you doing differently with that chisel? Once you tell us that, the mystery will be solved. :lol: :lol:
Er, why are you doing it differently with that one chisel, or is that a silly question?

David Savage dislikes Blue Spruce chisels, for example, yet someone here gets along fine with them, Why the split? They are clearly fine tools in all respects, but use A2 steel. What is it about the stuff? Is it just that some traditionalists are determined to dislike new-fangled stuff, while others are willing to embrace it, so find things to like or dislike about it whether it is their or not?

My idea was that people would simply state that they liked/disliked A2, what media they used to sharpen it and to what degree of grit size and if they used a jig or not. I thought I might see a trend that could explain the split.

Mike.

I sharpen my BS chisels and LV A2 plane irons with water stones at 30/35 degrees. My current set-up which I have used since starting with hand tools is a King 1000 and a Norton 4000/8000 combo. I also strop on horse hide with green paste for quick touch ups... To re-establish a primary bevel and to flatten my water stones I have a 325/1200 diamond plate.

This set-up has always served me well, but lately I am wanting to experiment with ceramic stones. Not to really get a finer edge, but just to see if it does speed up sharpening a bit as I tend to have sharpening afternoons rather than sharpen after every use, so the time savings might be nice...

 

[Kalimna]

bobbybirds - do you have a BS paring chisel also? If so, what angle do you sharpen it at, as I find the edge seems to crumble quite easily at any 'normal' paring angles.

Cheers,
Adam

 

[Modernist]

bobbybirds - do you have a BS paring chisel also? If so, what angle do you sharpen it at, as I find the edge seems to crumble quite easily at any 'normal' paring angles.

Cheers,
Adam

If I'd bought a BS chisel only to find it crumbled I think I'd be using it to sever my jugular :evil: Interesting that the A2 virus has spread this far.

 

[Kalimna]

Problem is, I don't know whether it is user error in sharpening/in use/in not sharpening often enough/in poor expectations of what I should be able to pare. For instance, let's say I sharpen at 25 degrees (which seems a bit low for the consensus on A2, but somewhere near the norm for a paring chisel), how long in use (say, on 1/2-1" oak) before it should require re-sharpening? 10 minutes? 30 minutes? An hour? A couple of days worth? I know this all depends on how one 'attacks' the wood with the tool, but in rough ball-park terms is all I would like to know.
And would 30-35 be appropriate for a paring chisel in A2?

Cheers,
Adam

 

[Modernist]

I don't think you've got a hope at anything less than 30 deg, certainly not 25. That tends to support the idea that A2 is not for paring. IMHO it is a hard wearing steel for higher angle edges 32-45 deg, particularly smoothers for difficult grain, but can sometimes take a good edge at 30 deg.

 

[Kalimna]

Thanks Brian, that rather confirms what I have suspected.
Cheers,
Adam

 

[Jacob]

And David Savage says the same here.
Seems to be a convincing answer to Woodbrain's question i.e. nothing at all to do with sharpening technique but more to do with the fact that you can't usefully sharpen it at all except to an angle above 30º.

 

[JohnCee]

I think there would be fewer problems if sharpening was more widely regarded as the very simple process it is, rather than some arcane ritual that requires a "technique".

 

[Jacob]

I think there would be fewer problems if sharpening was more widely regarded as the very simple process it is, rather than some arcane ritual that requires a "technique".

Absolutely! Still wouldn't solve the A2 prob; whatever technique, simple or arcane, you can't get a usable edge below 30 ish - according to many, but not all, users.